Manny's Reviews > Animal Farm

Hey, it could be worse. We could be living in the Burning World by J.G. Ballard--oh wait, climate change. Well, drink to forget I suppose. (swallows caffeinated cynanide.)

Damn, why didn't I think of that? A dystopian novel about Trump in the style of J.G. Ballard... it virtually writes itself. Though I see it as High-Rise meets The Drowned World.

Do you think communism might be given another shake with automation and UBI?

I have several times wondered if the invention of the laptop and the transformation into a post-industrial society doesn't mean that the means of production have finally been put in the hands of the workers. At least the ones who have learned how to code...

Manny wrote: "I have several times wondered if the invention of the laptop and the transformation into a post-industrial society doesn't mean that the means of production have finally been put in the hands of th..."

The means to prevent production is in the hands of the hackers, for sure...

The Bolsheviks were about as Marxist as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea are Democratic. That is to say practically non-existent.

It's not just about communism. It can be applied to democracy also.

Yes, I've been noticing that recently.

It should be understood as a warning against *all* sorts of political leaders that promise the people a paradise or ideal society in whatever shape or form.

But Nubero, it's such an effective way to get their votes!

Well, I live in a democracy (UK) and the self-serving and blatant hypocrisy of our leaders (from all political side) is very 'Animal Farm' too...

I can see that Brexit is going to be good for certain pigs. The sheep are gradually starting to suspect that it may not be quite as good for them.

Manny wrote: "I can see that Brexit is going to be good for certain pigs. The sheep are gradually starting to suspect that it may not be quite as good for them."

Ha! Ironically enough, even as a EEA citizen I supported Brexit -we were supposed to leave the EU, not the single market. But yes, the fact the two (EU and EEA) have been conflagrated and mixed up (without even talking about the disgusting way of using immigration/ xenophobia to fuel such confusion) reveals a lot about the manipulative intents (and deceit) of our elites. I used to be a politic geek; I confess being now disgusted by it all. :-(

Aurélien wrote: "...I supported Brexit -we were supposed to leave the EU, not the single market...."

Not really. Part of the reason we're in such a mess, with all the main parties divided, is that there was no common definition of what we were voting for or against. It was just "in/out", without defining exactly which bits we might be in or out of.

Cecily wrote: "Aurélien wrote: "...I supported Brexit -we were supposed to leave the EU, not the single market...."

Not really. Part of the reason we're in such a mess, with all the main parties divided, is that..."

Well, I disagree. The question was, should the UK stay within the EU or leave? At no point was it mentioned that we would leave the single market. But yes, the whole thing is a mess and it shouldn't be. We had two years to decide what type of exit to go for (and alternative models are plenty!) yet instead of doing so our leaders just spent their time fighting pitiful internal wars on who is more remainer than remainers or leaver than leavers... Let's acknowledge the will and patience of EU leaders towards the UK; because how our politicians managed to screw this up is beyond belief! 'Animal Farm' at play: self-centred and opportunistic leaders more worried about their own self (career) than the people they are supposed to serve...

Aurélien wrote: "The question was, should the UK stay within the EU or leave? At no point was it mentioned that we would leave the single market...."

Exactly! Terms were not defined, and different groups on each side suggested or inferred something different!

Manny wrote: "I can see that Brexit is going to be good for certain pigs. The sheep are gradually starting to suspect that it may not be quite as good for them."

Insightful.

it's not about comunism, but the soviet system.

Eduardo wrote: "it's not about comunism, but the soviet system."

...or just human nature...

“Animal Farm” is funny, it is a great book, a must read since the western world is turning to socialism/communism.

Or it'll be mocked when the entire world is communist, as is undoubtedly going to happen. Why do "intellectuals" think maintaining hierarchical systems with feudal remnants is a good thing to do? KKKapitilism is unsustainable and will die.

I think the moral of this book is that there doesn't turn out to be much of a difference between communism and capitalism. The Soviet Union had a pretty good line in "hierarchical systems with feudal remnants".

Except there is a huge difference between those two things, and it didn't, unless your understanding of the USSR comes from a book about talking animals that was written by a colonial police officer who snitched communists out to...the British government.

Well, I've also read Solzhenitsyn. And, yes, of course there are obvious huge differences between communism and capitalism, but in practice they both turn out to be strongly hierarchic, and the people at the bottom have no rights and get screwed.

The problem with any system is that they assume everyone participating does so with the best intentions. Communism and capitalism both seem especially vulnerable.

Oh yes, Solzhenitsyn, the blatantly anti-semitic fascist who claimed that Siberian prisoners had to eat prehistoric animals that had been long extinct to survive in his entirely fictional work that is, for some reason, still taken as nonfiction. Fantastic source of information.

So, what is this magical third way that you propose, Strasser?

Alexander wrote: "The problem with any system is that they assume everyone participating does so with the best intentions. Communism and capitalism both seem especially vulnerable."

Are you sure? Many religions seem based on the premise that almost everyone is by nature an evil-minded asshole. Perhaps this is why they are historically more durable?

Sage wrote: "Oh yes, Solzhenitsyn, the blatantly anti-semitic fascist who claimed that Siberian prisoners had to eat prehistoric animals that had been long extinct to survive in his entirely fictional work that..."

Um... have you actually read any Solzhenitsyn?

Alexander wrote: "The problem with any system is that they assume everyone participating does so with the best intentions. Communism and capitalism both seem especially vulnerable."

I don't know if anybody alive truly thinks there is an ideal and flawless form of any human activity. There has to be a mode of production, it is inevitable. You get nowhere if you just say "they're all bad, and I am smart and above them all."

Manny wrote: "Sage wrote: "Oh yes, Solzhenitsyn, the blatantly anti-semitic fascist who claimed that Siberian prisoners had to eat prehistoric animals that had been long extinct to survive in his entirely fictio..."

Not really into fascist anticommunist propaganda that's celebrated by the colonial west, but I've read passages and it's a fictional account filled with impossible scenarios.

Well, I have read several of Solzhenitsyn's books, and I don't recognise your characterisation at all. I think you have been exposed to a few passages carefully selected to present a misleading image of the man and his work. In particular, "fascist" is absurdly off the mark.

Manny wrote: "Well, I have read several of Solzhenitsyn's books, and I don't recognise your characterisation at all. I think you have been exposed to a few passages carefully selected to present a misleading ima..."

He was literally pro-Nazi, but ok.

http://www.idcommunism.com/2016/08/so...

As for his antisemitism, even the NY Times and other rabid anticommunists will admit to that.

https://www.nytimes.com/1985/11/13/bo...

Also, I am probably becoming more antagonistic than I mean to, I just don't like The Farm Animal Book or fascism apologia, so, sorry.

Sage wrote: "He was literally pro-Nazi, but ok.

http://www.idcommunism.com/2016/08/so..."

Ah give me a break. You point me to some rabid pro-communist propaganda blog full of vague mostly unsourced accusations and think that trumps actually looking at the source material. Do yourself a favour and read one of the man's books. He is nothing like this caricature.

Manny wrote: "Many religions seem based on the premise that almost everyone is by nature an evil-minded asshole. Perhaps this is why they are historically more durable?"

I think you hit on a point there - religions are built around the concept of the worst inclinations of human nature, while ideologies tend to completely ignore human nature.

Sage wrote: "You get nowhere if you just say "they're all bad, and I am smart and above them all."

Lucky for us, nobody said that. Saying something is inherently flawed doesn't mean it is automatically useless, but that it is smart to keep it in mind - especially when we're talking about more polarised ideologies, which probably are more vulnerable to abuse.

One of the abiding messages I took from this book is that any system of governance is always at risk of corruption by self-serving people with a will to power. Empirically, Communism has proved itself one of the more susceptible such systems. It's never worked in practice in a post-scarcity environment.

MilagroB wrote: "Robert wrote; "It's (Communism) never worked in practice in a post-scarcity environment."

Ironic that it can be clearly associated with locally reproducing the "scarcity.""

Well, indeed - I guess Capitalism is less hypocritical on this point...

Because of some "fellow travelers" (Soviet sympathizers) at Orwell's regular UK publisher, publication of Animal Farm was delayed for two years. Once released, it sold 600,00) copies in the first year.

Manny wrote: "Sage wrote: "He was literally pro-Nazi, but ok.

http://www.idcommunism.com/2016/08/so..."

Ah give me a break. You point me to some rabid pro-communist propaganda blog full of vague mostly unsourc..."

So you listen to literal Nazi supporters but balk at reading a pro-communist source? Lmfao your biases are pretty clear then. And this is my frustration with people who think the Animal Book is some profound work of literature. 5 minutes of discussion with one and they begin to reveal their Nazi sympathies.

Robert wrote: "One of the abiding messages I took from this book is that any system of governance is always at risk of corruption by self-serving people with a will to power. Empirically, Communism has proved its..."

yeah funny how the only valid threat to American hegemony is under socialist construction and this statement is untrue...

when the fuck has capitalism ever worked for the masses and not just for a small number of people beyond the initial transition from feudalism? I hear a lot of bullshit about systems "working" and "not working" from people who live in a place that has the world's largest prison population on earth and a homeless population of over 500,000, and continues its genocidal treatment of black and indigenous people.

Sage wrote: "Robert wrote: "One of the abiding messages I took from this book is that any system of governance is always at risk of corruption by self-serving people with a will to power. Empirically, Communism..."

Your first sentence denies itself; your second agrees with a point I made above but also falsely assumes I'm from the USA. Oh, and you're in no position to call out other people's biases...

Manny wrote: "Sage wrote: "He was literally pro-Nazi, but ok.

http://www.idcommunism.com/2016/08/so..."

Ah give me a break. You point me to some rabid pro-communist propaganda blog full of vague mostly unsourc..."

If you want a more liberal source that references it, here is an article I otherwise abhor that makes a mention of his well-documented support of Franco. Hmm...what kind of person supports Franco? Wasn't Franco a....oh gee, I think Franco was...a fascist!

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...

and another one

https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/so...

Gee, there sure are a lot of references to Solzhenitsyn's support of a fascist leader, I wonder why that is? And I guess there's also the fact that THE WHOLE REASON HE WAS INITIALLY THROWN IN JAIL IN THE USSR WAS FOR SUPPORTING THE NAZIS.

So, yeah, I think if your position on the USSR is informed by a book about talking animals that was written by a colonial cop (clearly he was well acquainted with pigs, since he was one himself) and incoherent, entirely fictitious drivel based on "rumors" he had heard (aka entirely pulled out of his ass and greatly embellished) written by a self-avowed fascist, I think you're intellectually dishonest to an extreme and I highly recommend Michael Parenti, Ludo Martens, and Domenico Losurdo.

Robert wrote: "Sage wrote: "Robert wrote: "One of the abiding messages I took from this book is that any system of governance is always at risk of corruption by self-serving people with a will to power. Empirical..."

Well ROBERT when I suggest America, I include Canada and England, where you're probably from. They're all the same place.

Robert wrote: "Sage wrote: "Robert wrote: "One of the abiding messages I took from this book is that any system of governance is always at risk of corruption by self-serving people with a will to power. Empirical..."

"this statement is untrue" was in reference to yours, brain genius.

Sage wrote: "Robert wrote: "Sage wrote: "Robert wrote: "One of the abiding messages I took from this book is that any system of governance is always at risk of corruption by self-serving people with a will to p..."

Actually I'm not from any of those countries, though I've lived in all three (and more) and can safely state that they are not all the same place..

Ah! The irony! IT BURNS! You have no grasp of punctuation, do you?

Robert wrote: "Sage wrote: "Robert wrote: "Sage wrote: "Robert wrote: "One of the abiding messages I took from this book is that any system of governance is always at risk of corruption by self-serving people wit..."

So you're an Amerikkkan or some shit, you just don't live there right now. You got me.

And no, sorry, the West AKA the white supremacist world powers are a singular entity and are inseparable from each other. It's not a great gotcha, you're still an Amerikkkan at heart, even if you aren't currently occupying Turtle Island.

If you act like a yankee in goddamn Zanzibar, I'm still gonna call you a yankee.

Sage wrote: "Robert wrote: "Sage wrote: "Robert wrote: "Sage wrote: "Robert wrote: "One of the abiding messages I took from this book is that any system of governance is always at risk of corruption by self-ser..."

Meanwhile, on planet Earth...

idk we might be movin towards communism. who knows

All of these pro communism idiots have yet to talk of a communist country that wasn’t a disaster. The US had its issues and has largely worked its way through them. The echoes of past sins are strong but no other country has done as much for world piece as the US. As Obama’s half brother once said. Colonialism worked out pretty good for Japan, S.Korea, and Germany. Maybe Iraq and Afghanistan fucked themselves over. The book is a lesson on overly powerful governments and the idea that government can solve issues. It can’t. Keep it as limited as possible and fix them yourself.

I have to disagree with your review with that communism will never be a footnote and schools are banning the book. You can’t read it now. And it’s sad because as new generations come- they won’t remember communism and the threat it is. It’s always going to be bad when there is evil in the world.

Well, I was taking the long view. I just think people will be reading it in the far future, when only experts remember what "communism" was and why it was important back in the 20th century, the way we still read Dante but only experts remember what the difference was between a Guelph and a Ghibelline.

Very disappointed though to hear that schools are banning it. You mean in the US? That seems completely crazy.