The 2018 Mini and why it will be my last Mac

[InuNacho]

I'm one of those Macs since the beginning folks. The first computer I truly used on my own was the family Mac Classic. I've watched Apple almost die and come back from the brink of destruction. I've used Macs daily in school, the school lab where I undoubtedly fell in love with digital media was full of Powermac G4s.

Before my 2018 Mini I had a very upgraded Mac Pro. Absolutely loved how I could squeeze in all the drives and cards for more ports into it. My chief complaint of course was heat. I live in a somewhat warm part of California already and having a heat lamp keeping my pet turtle alive AND a Mac Pro pumping out the heat in the same room was just a no go. Doesn't help my older monitors were putting out heat too.
Essentially during the winter, I never ran a heater.

Fast forward to today. I like my 2018 Mini. Its about the same multicore as my Mac Pro and substantially better at single core. It runs cooler, the fans aren't as loud and the new Ultrasharps put out way less heat. Hypothetically a win win.

Hypothetically.
I used to have a single power strip running everything, now I have 3. Hubs, docks and enclosures all take power and not everything plays nice when plugged into one another. After much experimentation and many forced hard shutdowns I have finally found a good balance but not everything is rosy. For one my Mini can't sleep with its RX 580 eGPU and probably 1/10 startups result in a random crash. The internal HDMI port causes crashes and one of the two monitors has to have video coming from the Mini semi-directly to work. The workaround is using a Dell WD15 USB C dock -> MiniDP -> Secondary Monitor.

This brings me to my future with Apple hardware.
One of the my biggest complaints about Apple is the depreciation and eventual dropping of things they don't like anymore. Right now I'm still on Mojave because I reference 32-Bit software. I've read people grumbling about losing Firewire support on newer MacOS for random devices. I keep a Sony DSR-45 DV Deck around for conversion projects, I'd hate to lose that.

The iOS bloat isn't the great either nor is the fact that I just can't plug in my Samsung S22 Ultra that I have to use for work and transfer files to and from it. My Windows laptop, no problem there.

Another point of contention is the lack of ports on all the current available Macs. The Studio has exactly as many ports as my current Mini and the M1 Mini lost ports. For reference this is my current Thunderbolt and USB trees.

Thats alot of hubs and docks just to connect stuff I use. On my Mac Pro I had 2x USB 3 cards to attach everything, worked without a hitch.

As a hobbyist, power user, artist there doesn't really seem to be a future for me and Apple. I can't stay on an obsolete OS forever and all the bugs associated with my current Mini have really turned me off from any future hardware. Heck, I can't even use Thunderbolt 1 and 2 devices on a 4 enabled computer.

Windows isn't as elegant as a Mac but at least it seems like I can actually do what I want to do with it.

 

[Colstan]

The brave new Apple Silicon future isn't for everyone. I've also got a 2018 Mac mini with RX 580 eGPU. The only issue I've had is getting Windows to consistently recognize the eGPU, but I knew that wasn't officially supported when I purchased it. I also stayed with Mojave until security updates ended.

I use Boot Camp to play an occasional Windows game. I hate Windows, I feel metaphorically dirty when I'm done with it, and can't wait to get back into macOS. I had originally purchased the base i3 model, with the anemic 128GB internal SSD. I've since supplemented it with so many different peripherals that I like to say that it is held together with sticks and bubble gum. This was supposed to be a stopgap computer until the announcement of Arm Macs. Instead, it's a crutch that I've been hanging onto, mainly because I've been playing more Windows-only games recently.

Eventually, this 2018 model is going to age out, and I'll have to make a choice. I don't see myself moving wholesale to PC, I just can't stand Windows. I gave Win11 a try and it's a new coat of paint on the same crumbling foundation. Windows 12 may be better, but I'm not betting on it.

That means I will either have to build a PC and spend the $1,500 or whatever with inflation, just to play PC games, or be satisfied with the meagre titles available on the Mac. While Apple is trying to improve the situation, the Mac will never have parity with PC, in that regard. Plus, a custom PC is always going to be a better gaming machine, even compared to Intel Macs.

My reasons aren't exactly the same as yours, but we both are facing difficult choices. I am impressed by Apple Silicon, Apple's semiconductor engineers have done an amazing job. Thus far, sales data shows that the Mac as a platform is better off for the switch. However, not every user is.

So, while I don't have an answer to your quandary, I can sympathize with your position, because I'm living it, as well.

 

[InuNacho]

I had originally purchased the base i3 model, with the anemic 128GB internal SSD. I've since supplemented it with so many different peripherals that I like to say that it is held together with sticks and bubble gum. This was supposed to be a stopgap computer until the announcement of Arm Macs. Instead, it's a crutch that I've been hanging onto, mainly because I've been playing more Windows-only games recently.

This basically sums up how I feel at the moment. I've prayed to the electronics gods and done my USB rituals but it seems to go completely against Apple's "It just works" philosophy.

I am too similarly impressed by what Apple Silicon can do. To put it in car terms, they built all these fancy German cars that are really fast and super engineered but there isn't an old Tacoma lying around that can take a beating.

 

[exoticSpice]

The Studio has exactly as many ports as my current Mini and the M1 Mini lost ports.

I believe the Studio has front IO as well such as 2 USB C/TB4 and a SD card reader. I hope the M2 generation adds more RAM and ports to the Mac mini. Apple still sells the i5/i7 Mac mini maybe that is for a M2 Pro Mac mini?

One of the my biggest complaints about Apple is the depreciation and eventual dropping of things they don't like anymore. Right now I'm still on Mojave because I reference 32-Bit software. I've read people grumbling about losing Firewire support on newer MacOS for random devices. I keep a Sony DSR-45 DV Deck around for conversion projects, I'd hate to lose that.

New ARM chips like the M1/2 and Qualcomm's 8 Gen 1 don't support 32bit. ARM has removed 32bit support in ARMv9.
Basically Apple was preparing for the ARM transition.

My best solution for you is to install macOS Ventura/Monterey on a seperate partition but before you do this backup your current drive and OS. This way you can still access the latest OS for now. The 2018 Mac mini will get the new macOS this year too.

The iOS bloat isn't the great either nor is the fact that I just can't plug in my Samsung S22 Ultra that I have to use for work and transfer files to and from it. My Windows laptop, no problem there.

I use this app to transfer my files from Android to Mac. This is the official app from Google itself.

Android File Transfer

www.android.com

 

[Sheepish-Lord]

As you stated, it sounds like you really need/enjoy legacy support and if that's the case then Windows is probably your best bet especially since you're not full engrained into the Apple ecosystem (Samsung phone) because once you are it's hard to get out. However, the same reasons you feel like you need to go with Windows are some the reasons I went away from it years ago. Even the Windows OS has multiple settings that seemingly do the same thing because their user base hates even a GUI change. Just feels outdated and with the constant daily updates it's more bloated than ever and I simply don't need that type of support in my life. Sure I can't run a dot matrix printer from the 90's but why would I want to? I would much rather have an ecosystem, that while not perfect, is better for my life and sanity than a mix mash of Android/Windows devices.

 

[MajorFubar]

I feel for you. It's a big commitment for many to migrate to Apple's 'new way of working'.
Some members in this community don't help things either, making you feel like you're someone's granddad when for example you point out you need something with USB-A support. Heck I even still need to be able to burn audio CDs for some clients, and one client presents me with a 30-pin iPod Classic that holds all her backing tracks.

Some things have got easier though. USB-C is a one-for-all connector that facilitates everything from audio, video, data, and charging. Having gone to the considerable effort of buying the right docks (hit and miss), every piece of tech you see here connects to either my Mac Studio or M1 Macbook Air with just one single USB-C cable:

 

[Heat_Fan89]

This is why I have never locked into one particular platform or company. I cringe when I hear the term ecosystem. When a person or user locks themselves in that allows a company to do as they wish at the users expense. I am not particularly thrilled that my 2018 Mini may not recieve another OS update past Ventura. I have been around computers since the early 80's. I have seen and learned a lot. That is why I have tech that serves different purposes so that if a company pulls something I don't agree with I can leave them and do business with a company I am aligned too.

I have owned many Macs, Windows PC's and gaming consoles. Gaming consoles is a good example because locking oneself to a particular company locks you out from playing a game that would be found on another platform. So I learned to buy them all.

If I locked myself into the Apple ecosystem, I would find myself not having access to certain programs that are available on the Windows platform. I have also learned not to disparage or hold in high regard one platform or company over the other. If I was solely a Mac user I would not be able to play many of the AAA games I like because they are Windows based and run much, much better on the Windows platform. So I have Windows gaming rigs just for that purpose.

There are some things I don't like about dealing with Apple. If I were locked in, all I could is to whine or complain. Not locking myself in allows me the freedom to find something better that gives me choices.

 

[exoticSpice]

This is why I have never locked into one particular platform or company. I cringe when I hear the term ecosystem. When a person or user locks themselves in that allows a company to do as they wish at the users expense. I am not particularly thrilled that my 2018 Mini may not recieve another OS update past Ventura. I have been around computers since the early 80's. I have seen and learned a lot. That is why I have tech that serves different purposes so that if a company pulls something I don't agree with I can leave them and do business with a company I am aligned too.

I have owned many Macs, Windows PC's and gaming consoles. Gaming consoles is a good example because locking oneself to a particular company locks you out from playing a game that would be found on another platform. So I learned to buy them all.

If I locked myself into the Apple ecosystem, I would find myself not having access to certain programs that are available on the Windows platform. I have also learned not to disparage or hold in high regard one platform or company over the other. If I was solely a Mac user I would not be able to play many of the AAA games I like because they are Windows based and run much, much better on the Windows platform. So I have Windows gaming rigs just for that purpose.

There are some things I don't like about dealing with Apple. If I were locked in, all I could is to whine or complain. Not locking myself in allows me the freedom to find something better that gives me choices.

That's why I use a macbook, Linux, android, xbox and Apple TV. Never lock yourself to one company. So far my experience with M1/2 has been great. I look forward to what Apple does 4-5 years with Apple sillicon

 

[theluggage]

I used to have a single power strip running everything, now I have 3. Hubs, docks and enclosures all take power and not everything plays nice when plugged into one another.

There's no getting around the loss of the (relatively affordable) Mac Pro - which has been a problem since 2012. The cost of the 2019 Mac Pro may be justifiable if you need to fill it with high-end GPUs and afterburner cards - but sometimes what you need is a couple of extra USB controllers and a bunch of hard drives.

There's still a chance that we may get an Apple Silicon Mac Pro with PCIe slots and internal storage (since we know that there is going to be a new Mac Pro, and internal expansion is one of the few ways it could distinguish itself from the Studio Ultra) - but with the Studio Ultra at $4000 I doubt that it will be particularly affordable. However, it could still turn out to be a more attractive deal than the $6000 base 2019 Mac Pro, which, aside from the expandability, has pretty pathetic CPU, GPU, RAM and storage specs.

The theoretical solution to the clutter is to go rackmount - there are already a few rackmount kits for the Studio, so you could have the Mac, storage, a PCIe enclosure and even TB/USB hubs all neatly stacked up. The fly in that ointment is that getting anything in rackmount form tends to be expensive (either like-for-like, or by forcing you to buy something more powerful than you need).

One of the my biggest complaints about Apple is the depreciation and eventual dropping of things they don't like anymore.

I don't entirely disagree, but, on the other hand, an obsession with backwards compatibility is part of what is holding Windows back - and why Apple have successfully been able to switch processor architecture 3 times while Windows is still joined at the hip with x86 (despite several efforts over the years to support other processors).

Any Mac software that is still 32 bit is now well and truly "abandonware" - and while there is some totally self-contained software that can potentially keep doing its job for ever, most things will eventually become just too out of date as tech changes.

I think the practical question you have to ask yourself is - if you switch to Windows - will you still need to keep the Mac Mini around to "reference" Mac software? Otherwise, those old 32 bit apps will still be toast along with every other Mac app that you use - and one way or another you''l still need to keep that 2018 Mojave Mac around (at least it's a Mini!) So it comes down to guessing what hypothetical things that Apple might drop in the future vs. the future of Windows. Already, with Windows 11, MS have been more aggressive in dropping support for older hardware ("because security") and finally killed off 16 bit software - and the Windows software market is heading down the same slippery slope towards subscription-based and/or server-dependent software as the Mac.

Another point of contention is the lack of ports on all the current available Macs. The Studio has exactly as many ports as my current Mini and the M1 Mini lost ports.

I believe the Studio has front IO as well such as 2 USB C/TB4 and a SD card reader.

Yes, as well as the SD slot, the Studio Max has two front USB C/3.1g2 ports and, on the Studio Ultra, those are upgraded to full TB4/USB4 ports (giving a total of 6).

I think, though, on the Max they're all sharing the same USB controller with the rear USB-A ports, so I'm not clear that theres any extra USB bandwidth to go around.

Also, the Max and Ultra have, respectively, 4 and 6 TB4 controllers - 1 per port - c.f. the Intel Mini only having 2, each shared by 2 ports. Plus, TB4/USB4 now support hubs with multiple downstream TB4 ports, so the potential I/O is considerably expanded.

Unfortunately, at the moment, there are only a couple of such TB4 hubs around and they're mostly designed with laptops in mind. The problem with the whole concept is that the Mac can only supply the TB4 minimum of 15W per port, so a bus-powered TB4 hub with multiple 15W downstream ports isn't possible... it needs a power brick - but the current laptop-centric ports have extra-large bricks to support laptop charging.

I quite like this as a concept, the closest thing I've seen to a desktop-centric TB hub:
https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-ministack-stx

I hope the M2 generation adds more RAM and ports to the Mac mini.

Well, the regular M2 can support 24GB RAM but there's no evidence that it can support more ports or displays than the M1 - which the M1 Mini pretty much maxes out. You'd need a M2 Pro... and a M2 Pro Mac Mini with extra ports would effectively be a Mac Studio [Edit: by which I mean it would be a lower-end "Studio Pro" with the studio form factor to accommodate the extra ports and cooling].

Given the M2 Air has come with a price hike, and the M1 Air has been kept as the entry level - my guess is that a M2 Mini (with the 24GB option) would be enough to replace the remaining Intel Minis.

 

[Colstan]

This is why I have never locked into one particular platform or company. I cringe when I hear the term ecosystem.

Exactly this. There's an assumption around here that everyone uses nothing but Apple gear. I'm not an Apple user, I'm a Mac user. I don't own any other Apple products, and if I stopped using a Mac, then I would have no interest in Apple's offerings. It's fine for those who like it, but it's not for me. I keep my tech use "modular" enough that I could easily move to different products. Switching to PC and Windows (or Linux) would be as simple for me as building a computer and installing my choice of operating system.

I simply enjoy macOS, think that Apple makes superior technology, and appreciate that they control the entire stack, from the chips inside the Mac casing up to the operating system and important applications. Of course, the eternal problem is that software availability and hardware expandability are always going to be superior on PC.

 

[Boyd01]

I'm one of those Macs since the beginning folks.

I'm one of those "Apple since before the Mac folks", got an Apple ][ in 1978, Mac 512k in 1985. Running a maxxed out 2018 i7 Mini now and am completely happy with it, arguably the best computer I have owned. Running demanding GIS software in a Windows 10 VM under Parallels and doing big projects that involve processing terabytes of data. This is a big upgrade from the old HP Desktop Windows 7 machine that it replaced.

I have expensive 32-bit legacy software and it runs faster in Mountain Lion and Sierra VM's than it ever did on my old Macs. I also have an old Sony DVCAM/HDV deck that I used to capture hundreds of old performance video tapes. Did that on my 2012 quad Mini (last Mini with a firewire port!) and would just do that again if needed.

Bluetooth not really an issue for me, my keyboard is next to the Mini and I don't have any other devices. Yes, the 2018 Mini runs hot but that is what it is. I push it hard, often running 24/7 exporting (literally) millions of tiles for online maps. Hasn't let me down yet.

I don't have any hubs, I just plug/unplug stuff if needed. No eGPU, they're expensive, have read about too many issues and just don't need one.

Guess this will be my last Intel Mac, but certainly won't be my last Mac. Hopefully there will be "real" Windows support on Apple Silicon eventually, but if there isn't then I guess I'll need to go back to a separate Windows machine. But that is all sometime in the future, the 2018 Mini should continue meeting my needs for a few more years.

At my age, I'm not going to "cut off my nose to spite my face" and stop using the Mac.

 

[Heat_Fan89]

That's why I use a macbook, Linux, android, xbox and Apple TV. Never lock yourself to one company. So far my experience with M1/2 has been great. I look forward to what Apple does 4-5 years with Apple sillicon

And that's the way it should be, really. I also own and use Mac's, Windows desktops/laptops, XBOX's, Playstation's, Nintendo consoles, etc. I spread my money around. I'm also looking forward to the next Mac Mini, hopefully later this year.

 

[Boil]

I quite like this as a concept, the closest thing I've seen to a desktop-centric TB hub:
https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-ministack-stx

Slow speeds for the internal storage options though...

...a M2 Pro Mac Mini with extra ports would effectively be a Mac Studio.

The Mac Studio adds the M1 Max SoC with a minimum of 50% more GPU cores, double the UMA bandwidth, twice the memory capacity, and 10Gb Ethernet...

So no, a M2 Pro Mac mini with extra ports is not effectively a Mac Studio...

 

[theluggage]

The Mac Studio adds the M1 Max SoC with a minimum of 50% more GPU cores, double the UMA bandwidth, twice the memory capacity, and 10Gb Ethernet...

Sorry. What I meant was that it would likely be a "Mac Studio Pro" - priced below the Mac Studio Max - with the Studio form factor to accomodate the extra ports (& possibly extra cooling).

Slow speeds for the internal storage options though...

Yeah, I like the concept not necessarily the actual product. However, if I did get one I'd probably use a big, cheap SSD for offloading files - if I really needed a top spec super-fast SSD, I'd probably hang it on a dedicated thunderbolt port, not have it share bandwidth with 3 other TB devices.

There's also this one - which lacks the multiple TB4 downstream ports but appears to have faster SSD speeds (bit of a no-name brand, though).

 

[astrorider]

Buying a new Mac in 2018 and then not updating it beyond the original OS is asking for trouble IMO. I don't upgrade until an OS gets up to at least the .3 (usually 0.4) release, but Catalina, Big Sur, and Monterey have all been solid for most people after their first few releases. I wish it wasn't the case that the initial OS that ships with a Mac may still have bugs on that Mac when the next major OS update is released, but they do often fix those bugs in that next major release. The bugs you're experiencing may have been fixed a few years ago already. I would definitely recommend cloning your drive to an external, updating it and testing under a newer OS.

 

[Fishrrman]

"Buying a new Mac in 2018 and then not updating it beyond the original OS is asking for trouble IMO."

My 2018 Mini still runs Mojave.
It will ALWAYS run Mojave, as long as it continues to boot and run.

No plans to change.
Typing this reply on it now...

 

[rpmurray]

Apple will only keep me when they come out with a 27 inch or larger M series iMac (hopefully in Black). Basically an iMac Pro with all the ports but an M something SoC inside. I despise laptops (hate trackpads and the smaller displays and keyboards). Laptops are also eco-unfriendly, if the logic board dies you basically have to throw away a perfectly good display, whereas wtth an iMac you can get a driver board, install it inside and use it as a secondary display. The mini and Studio don't lite my fire mainly because you have to buy an external display (an extra cost) and you can only find inferior 4K displays, except for the LG 27 inch 5K and the Studio Display, both overpriced for what they offer.

 

[astrorider]

"Buying a new Mac in 2018 and then not updating it beyond the original OS is asking for trouble IMO."

My 2018 Mini still runs Mojave.
It will ALWAYS run Mojave, as long as it continues to boot and run.

No plans to change.
Typing this reply on it now...

That's great Mojave is working well for you....if it ain't broke don't fix it. For me, I've had Macs that never were completely stable in the OS they originally shipped with, like the OP. Unfortunately I don't think it's that uncommon. Of course it's going to depend on your configuration (peripherals, expansion cards, etc), and probably how late into an OS's cycle a new Mac mode is released. The later it is, the less time there is for Apple to fix model-specific bugs before the next major update when they stop focusing on previous OS bug fixes.

 

[Boyd01]

My 2018 Mini shipped with Catalina, still running it. Generally, very stable in spite of heavy VM usage.

 

[InuNacho]

It's interesting to see other users in the same boat or mindset as myself.
I contacted a friend who works in ITAD yesterday and he sold me a very cheap Dell Precision 3630 tower. With an i7-8700, 32GB, and 512GB NVME it is quite capable and Windows 11 compatible although it is running 10 Pro at the moment. It has what I need, lots of native USB ports, plenty of SATA connectors, and a supported OS. It will need a beefier PSU to accommodate my RX 580 but those are relatively cheap.

Luckily for me I don't have any MacOS specific software I truly use regularly except FCPX which isn't a real loss now that I'm learning DaVinci.

When I think about the cost of all the docks, enclosures, and hubs I've had to connect to my Mini it to get it to where I want it to be, its actually a bit surprising that it cost just about the same as the Mini itself.

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

One of the my biggest complaints about Apple is the depreciation and eventual dropping of things they don't like anymore. Right now I'm still on Mojave because I reference 32-Bit software. I've read people grumbling about losing Firewire support on newer MacOS for random devices.

Your post makes some interesting points, but I don't understand these.

Apple dropped 32-bit support because 64-bit is an improvement without compromise; yet unless Apple dropped support for the former technology, many developers likely wouldn't update their software. Similarly, Apple made OS Lion download or USB drive-only, which helped to prepare users for a future where DVD drives would no longer exist on their devices.

Having 64-bit on all their platforms also insures compatibility, improved security and helped with the adaptation of iOS from Mac OS.

Firewire is a similar story, a technology that was once relevant and then no-longer. I'm also in audio production and, honestly, when I've come across 32-bit plugins then I always look for an alternative, and more often than not something better crops up (and the developer keeps it up-to-date).

 

[ThunderSkunk]

I'm one of those Macs since the beginning folks.

Yeah, I got on board the Apple bandwagon with the II. Hung on through the ups & downs, bought hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of Apple gear over the years to fill my home and offices, always had good customer service experiences & enjoyed supporting the little company that could. But was also aware that Apple was changing as it became too big to be questioned, and since 2019, it's been one big disappointment after another. From the removal of features and character, to the user unfriendliness of dongle hell and inefficient "engagement-engineered" (more taps & clicks, not less) UI's, to a string of expensive failures to do the right thing in Customer Service, Warranty & AppleCare, to annual updates breaking everything in the office, to leaving us in a lurch with 32-bit support, to malfunctioning firmware updates in B.S. & Monterey, to severing its tie to the working world by dumping Intel completely, I have been reluctant to add it all up and admit that it's over and I'm in an unhealthy relationship here. Instead, in a flurry of eBay & classifieds activity, I've bought up a pile of my favorite models of MBPs and iMacs from the past. I realize this little spending fit is just a last gasp, prolonging the inevitable. Eventually those batteries will all die, and Apple won't offer replacements just like they don't offer parts for previous models now. And they're all soldiered together, so when the NVME goes, the whole machine goes in the trash. All of this stuff is carefully engineered to be purely disposable and end up in the landfill as soon as any part of it goes wrong. ...while being advertised to us as the environmentally sound consumer choice to make. Meanwhile new Apple is telling its supporters in Taiwan to forfeit their nationality and call themselves China on the label, and the more I think about it, I've likely bought my last Apple product.

 

[ThunderSkunk]

I'm also in audio production and, honestly, when I've come across 32-bit plugins then I always look for an alternative, and more often than not something better crops up (and the developer keeps it up-to-date).

Let me know when you write a 64-bit application to drive the Moog Midi Murf instrument. Since its control software is proprietary & exclusive to a defunct developer, everyone with a thousand+ dollar fully analog programmable animatronic multi-resonance filter is stuck buying up old Mojave-era MBP13's to run them. ...among other things. I guess there's a case to be made that all musical instruments older than one year should be thrown in the trash and replaced every year like computers, but given the trends in Musical instrument resale values, I'd say good luck convincing anyone of that.

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

Let me know when you write a 64-bit application to drive the Moog Midi Murf instrument. Since its control software is proprietary & exclusive to a defunct developer, everyone with a thousand+ dollar fully analog programmable animatronic multi-resonance filter is stuck buying up old Mojave-era MBP13's to run them. ...among other things. I guess there's a case to be made that all musical instruments older than one year should be thrown in the trash and replaced every year like computers, but given the trends in Musical instrument resale values, I'd say good luck convincing anyone of that.

You’ve contacted Moog about this?

 

[KennyJr]

Okay, what will your next computer be. One thing is highly probable - it'll be manufactured by one company and be using an operating system from another. Each will have its specific updates which you will more than likely load when (if) you learn about them. PCs are good as long as you have an IT department supporting them. And by the way, whatever you do, don't let your anti-virus software lapse; forewarned is forearmed. Over the years, each time I've strayed I've always come back to good old predictable & communicative Apple.