s.penkevich's Reviews > 1984

1984 by George Orwell
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bookshelves: classics, society, politik

If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—for ever.

History stopped in 1936,’ George Orwell once said to fellow author Arthur Koestler. During his time in the Spanish Civil War, Orwell observed the pervasiveness of propaganda as a pillar upholding authoritarianism, from censored newspapers to lies perpetuated for political convenience and began to fear that ‘the very concept of objective truth is fading out of the world.’ This fear presented itself across the whole of his works during his short life, culminating in his famous 1984 where he warns ‘who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.’ Published in 1949 and written as Orwell was dying from tuberculosis, he didn’t live long to see how 1984 and his dire warnings against authoritarianism would have a lasting effect even to this day, often being used by all sides of the political spectrum as a cultural touchstone. And while this is mostly owing to the broad criticisms showing how any ideology can become oppressive when hungry for power, it also exemplifies his own dread that words will be twisted and quoted as cudgels to fit a desired purpose as truth is washed away. A harrowing story of dystopia, surveillance, manipulation and resistance being crushed underfoot, 1984 still chills today with its themes on collective vs individual identity under totalitarianism and controlling all aspects of reality to eliminate all those who step outside the boundaries of orthodoxy.

We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it.

When we read sci-fi, words like “prophetic” and “warning” often get applied. 1984 continues to remain relevant due to its warnings against irresponsible use of rhetoric, which almost makes the references to it amusing or ironic. Such as the Apple computer commercial in 1984 that uses the novel for the sake of marketing (and what is “marketing” but a euphemism for propaganda) a product that would lead to all sorts of concerns over government surveillance for which people would quote 1984 in addressing them. I think the term prophetic often frames a book in a way that causes us to consider how close it came true, which seems beside the point because when we look at the ways it didn’t, that often becomes an excuse for delegitimization or ignoring the warning.

Born Eric Arthur Blair in Bengal in 1903 and passing in 1950, Orwell’s short life left a lasting legacy from his works like Animal Farm being classroom staples in the US and terms like “Orwellian” being blithely applied to anything that brushes against government use of technology and surveillance. Hardly a political cycle goes by in the US without 1984 coming up. In the US alone in the past decade we saw it returning to the paperback bestseller list under the Trump administration when the term “alternative facts” was being tossed around, and a few years later it was being referenced by the GOP to claim the government was denying an election victory and inventing the January 6th terrorist attack to arrest people. Though with a president making statements like “What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening,” naturally one is reminded of Orwell writing ‘the party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command,’ and we are reminded of the power of literature and how we often turn to great works for guidance during uncertain times, though often, as Orwell warned, using it as propaganda shorn of context. Orwell did live long enough to see the novel used improperly, having to put out a statement almost immediately for those who wished to use the novel as an example against the British Labor Party. ‘My recent novel is NOT an on Socialism or on the British Labor Party (of which I am a supporter),’ he wrote, and an introduction to the book states:
every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.

Which becomes a pretty important distinction, as Orwell believed in better form of governing yet also was suspicious of anyone who would seek out power in order to change it as he writes in the novel ‘we know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it.’ I feel 1984 is best read with an openness to nuance and in good faith, which is often glossed over for the sake of political identifying which is, ironically or not, the exact thing he was warning against. Which is to say, call out problems even if it’s your own “side” and don’t create further divide by abusing rhetoric for the sake of scoring quick political points.

I think there is a tendency when trying to score quick political points that things need to have some sort of unassailable pure aim to them. 1984 is critical of any regime that seeks to keep power, but narrowing it to a pointed attack against an opponent without seeing how it might apply to your own political "team" (US politics is so much cheering for your "home team" than actually hashing out politics, especially lately, though I also find the whole "both sides" angle to often be used less for establishing nuance than trying to delegitamize any efforts for progress too, but hell who am I to say I'm just as bad as anyone) is more convenient. But even Orwell himself isn’t a “pure” figure, having been an informant for the British government delivering a list of names of people suspected of communism (the list includes John Steinbeck and many have observed that there is a strong presence of gay people on the list which makes many of Orwell’s rather homophobic comments seem all the more menacing). He also, as A. E. Dyson observed in his book on Orwell, that he ‘had a very English dislike of intellectuals, supposing that anyone willing to wear such a label would be diminished or depraved.’ Which is all neither here nor there, but goes to show how one can create a narrative out of anything, and that is what 1984 taps into.

So let’s move on to the novel and head on down to Room 101. As I said earlier, 1984 can be read as a culmination of a lot of his themes and ideas across his short career. Warning of totalitarianism arrives everywhere with Orwell, such as Burmese Days when he describes the town as ‘a stifling, stultifying world…which every word and every thought is censored,’ not unlike 1984 because ‘free speech is unthinkable.’ And one can read in Keep the Aspidistra Flying, with Comstock (a name derived from Common and Stock similarly to how the terms in 1984 are often truncated phrases) bemoaning ‘I’m dead, You’re dead. We’re all dead people in a dead world,’ as a precursor to the pivotal moment when Winston and Jane declare ‘we’re dead’ right before being exposed as having been set up. For Orwell, speech and language is very key. Language itself is fallible and can be morphed to meet many purposes—it’s the medium of poets for a reason—and in 1984 Orwell examines how this can be used to negate truth and establish entirely fictional histories that become generally accepted as a means to upholding power.

War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.


Winston’s job is to rewrite history to fit the purpose of the party. Within his department we find all sorts of nefarious linguistic play designed to control the masses because it is thought that ‘if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.’ We can argue that we see this notion reflected in our modern day, where books exposing history that can be seen as a blemish on the US are banned or dismissed as unpatriotic or trying to rewrite history (the irony in the latter is thick) and many have spoken on the suppression of queer books as an effort to erase the language people need to assess their own identities. What Orwell is looking at is the way language and propaganda is used to control. I enjoy the way he makes creative use of language to compile entire terminologies used by Ingsoc (the party in control that is pretty blatantly a nod to Soviet Russia) to create a propagated history that fits whatever they need, even erasing the history of entire wars to portray other countries as allies and erase the recent memory of them as enemies.
Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.

To step outside the orthodoxy of the Party’s version of history is to become an enemy of the Party and society and find yourself “vaporized” and erased from history. ‘Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think,’ Orwell writes, ‘Orthodoxy is unconsciousness,’ and when the truth we know conflicts with the truth of the Party, it must be edited. ‘Lies,’ writes Rebecca Solnit in her book Orwell's Roses, ‘the assault on language -- were the necessary foundation for all the other assaults.’ Afterall, ‘the first victim of war is truth, goes the old saying, and a perpetual war against truth undergirds all authoritarianisms.’ “Doublespeak” comes into play here, where one can hold conflicting opinions in their mind and just accept them, and the Party finds that fear is a great tool for ensuring willing erasure of truth. ‘Truth is not a statistic,’ Winston argues, claiming that just because the masses agree doesn’t make it true, though over the novel we see how the power to rewrite “truth” can potentially eviscerate anyone who says otherwise until it becomes the only known “truth.” Returning to Rebecca Solnit, she observes:
To be forced to live with the lies of the powerful is to be forced to live with your own lack of power over the narrative, which in the end can mean lack of power over anything at all. Authoritarians see truth and fact and history as a rival system they must defeat.

It is in this way the Party keeps people subservient. ‘A hierarchical society was only possible on a basis of poverty and ignorance,’ and Winston, upon reading Goldstein’s book (the book serves as an insert into the narrative that provides a LOT of exposition about the world and its structures as well as being a sort of Marxist-esque handbook, though it only offers the how things came to be and never the why, much to Winston’s interest), Winston realizes that the proles (the working class) are the possible solution. However he realized the proles can only revolt if they become conscious of their conditions and only can become conscious of their conditions if they revolt (not a far cry from Orwell’s own statement ‘we cannot win the war without introducing Socialism, nor establish Socialism without winning the war.’), and worries this may never happen. There is also the issue that a revolution will only put a new Party in power that will inevitably oppress again, just in different ways.

The masses never revolt of their own accord, and they never revolt merely because they are oppressed. Indeed, so long as they are not permitted to have standards of comparison, they never even become aware that they are oppressed.

So without giving anything away because this book is full of surprises (though one may guess if they have read We by Yevgeny Zamyatin, which Orwell “borrows” heavily from—as does Huxley’s Brave New World—and still remains my favorite of the three), across this novel we see a spirit of resistance rise and the forces of power come to meet it with a heavy boot and the power of erasure. While much of the novel focuses on the individual versus the collective, the biggest act of betrayal comes at the end in choosing to protect oneself, the individual, and asking for the harm of others in order to enter the “protection” of the collective Party by erasing any part of oneself outside their orthodoxy.

Where once was the belief ‘to die hating them, that was freedom,’ we see ‘in the face of pain there are no heroes’ and fear keeps people in line. Reminding the people of the frailty of being an individual drives them towards compliance. Yet, in another way, we see the collective existing because of the desire of individuals to protect themselves at the expense of everyone else: nobody will revolt out of fear for themselves and in doing so allows the oppression of all to continue. I think this is what Ursula K. Le Guin is getting at when her books look at the need to integrate both the individual and collective by refusing easy binaries and hierarchies. She also, especially in The Dispossessed: An Ambiguous Utopia argues that history can never become stagnant and that, like Orwell argues, an revolution will try to uphold power and oppress leading to the necessity of another revolution. While Le Guin sees this as the natural course of history (the double meaning of revolution as a revolt and a constant turning cycling through) Orwell sees this as a constant erosion of truth due to the weaponization of language as propaganda that will inevitably erase reality in place of a false, collective reality where truth is sent to the grave.

We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness.

One might find 1984 to be a rather bleak book, but it is also intended as a warning. There are many minor warnings building up to the larger, main point—such as the paperweight symbolizing a past now inaccessible where art could be beautiful for the sake of beauty, as well as symbolizing the frailty of the individual—and that we must take care to use language responsibly lest we hold the door for open propaganda. We can even do this on an individual level, such as not perpetuating misinformation (funny political memes are easy to share but dilute the severity of problems when we poke fun at, say, the looks or mannerisms of a politician instead of focusing on their policies) and not giving in to easy attacks instead of respecting the nuances. And so that's my rough rant on 1984, a book that lives on for both its relevance and its political convenience and maybe we should all remember that truth is more important than winning an argument or scoring political edgy points. I fail at it too, we all do, but Orwell reminds us to do better.



'A nation of warriors and fanatics, marching forward in perfect unity, all thinking the same thoughts and shouting the same slogans, perpetually working, fighting, triumphing, persecuting - three hundred million people all with the same face.'
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Reading Progress

Finished Reading
July 3, 2023 – Shelved
July 3, 2023 – Shelved as: classics
July 3, 2023 – Shelved as: society
July 3, 2023 – Shelved as: politik

Comments Showing 1-50 of 72 (72 new)


Jesse On of my all time favorites.


Carmen Wonderful review.


message 3: by Mansuriah (new)

Mansuriah Hassan Terrific review! I always look forward to read your reviews :)


s.penkevich Jesse wrote: "On of my all time favorites."

It’s so good! Great choice as a favorite. I hasn’t read it since high school and found it not only held up but I think I enjoyed it way more (and also got a LOT more out of it)


message 5: by Amina (new)

Amina That opening quote is both haunting and terrifying, at how true it rings. Such a thoughtful and insightful review, S! 💛 I have heard much of this book, but never read it, but I appreciate how you described it. So much so, that it's a narrator who is aware of their contradictory views, but still acts upon it. As you highlighted in the '...war is peace...' quote, I always find it special to read books that speak of a time not yet here, much like Ray Bradbury does in his sci-fi short stories, that authors always write of the future as a warning, that if we don't change who we are in the present that they live, it is the future that will be affected. And while, we may not have flying cars or live on other planets yet, it is the fear of how human behavior can become a danger to us, all, is probably what authors like George Orwell captured so perfectly true. 🙏🏻


s.penkevich Carmen wrote: "Wonderful review."

Thank you so much! Yours as well :)


s.penkevich Mansuriah wrote: "Terrific review! I always look forward to read your reviews :)"

Thank you so much that means a lot :)


Jennifer Welsh Fantastic review of a fantastic book, s.! You’d make an excellent professor! 💕


s.penkevich Amina wrote: "That opening quote is both haunting and terrifying, at how true it rings. Such a thoughtful and insightful review, S! 💛 I have heard much of this book, but never read it, but I appreciate how you d..."

Thank you so much! Definitely a pretty terrifying and rather depressing book. We read it in high school and I decided to give it another go to prep for reading the new retelling from the woman’s point of view and found it a lot quicker and more enjoyable read than I had remembered. And quite true, I think that’s why I’ve always loved sci fi? It like depicts a possible future that Carries such a message beyond its own story? I once read someone say prophetic fiction gets ignored if we don’t line up exactly as so but we shouldn’t discount the warnings anyways (I think they were talking about Phillip K Dick?) and I feel like this is definitely one of those books. Like sure, we aren’t living in 1984 if I live in a country where I can still read 1984 but it doesn’t make the warning any less true? If that makes sense. Thanks again! And glad you love Bradbury, I REALLY need to read more of him.


s.penkevich Jennifer wrote: "Fantastic review of a fantastic book, s.! You’d make an excellent professor! 💕"

Aw well thank you! I’ve always secretly wanted to teach a college lit class haha


Julio Pino Thanks, S.: The only form of rebellion allowed in any society is that which reinforces that society. This is particular true of the arts. Thus the Apple Computer ad from 1984. THE ADVENTURES OF ROBIN HOOD is one of my favorite films, but as one wag noted, "The only guerrilla fighters Hollywood would permit are monarchists." I do not share Orwell's nostalgia for "objective truth", which is often a euphemism for what the ruling class wants, or as Gramsci wrote "common sense is the logic of the bourgeoisie". In many ways Orwell was wise and prophetic in "1984" and in other ways naive.


s.penkevich Julio wrote: "Thanks, S.: The only form of rebellion allowed in any society is that which reinforces that society. This is particular true of the arts. Thus the Apple Computer ad from 1984. THE ADVENTURES OF ROB..."

quite true! Mark Fisher observed in Capitalist Realism that the public is sold “safe” versions of rebellion that reduces it to aesthetics instead of action and will co-opt any movement to ensure it can’t become an actual threat by reframing it to mitigate the worst effects of capitalism instead of actually countering it.
Yeaaaa there’s a lot of 1984 where it’s like, I see what you are saying but it’s pretty muddied. I think a lot got sacrificed in theory in order to deliver the “shock” ending too. And agreed, his objective truth sort of misses how much his idea was a very white colonialist written “truth” that relies on imposing objective meaning. It’s a good attempt though, like definitely a better warning on being responsible with rhetoric than a policial theory. And feels a bit defeatist? Like the implication that any revolution is futile because it will just turn authoritarian eventually, comparatively I prefer Le Guin’s assessment that history is never stable and continuous revolution is natural because at least it gives more room for agency.
The Adventures of Robin Hood is great! I love any reiteration, at least fun to check out


Nocturnalux I actually appreciate the defeatism, it feels closer to lived experience than a lot of the "and then everything was sunshine and rainbows" fiction out there.


s.penkevich Nocturnalux wrote: "I actually appreciate the defeatism, it feels closer to lived experience than a lot of the "and then everything was sunshine and rainbows" fiction out there."

Yea that’s a good point too. Especially with this being often read in high school in the US, I suspect this is a lot of people’s first encounter with a story that ends bleakly. Which I definitely appreciate, it shakes up the feeling “it will all end okay” you often assume reading a book when young. Personally i like dark endings, more realistic anyways haha


Nocturnalux s.penkevich wrote: "Nocturnalux wrote: "I actually appreciate the defeatism, it feels closer to lived experience than a lot of the "and then everything was sunshine and rainbows" fiction out there."

Yea that’s a good..."


I just finished an anime that had this exact problem (won't mention the title as that'd be a spoiler), it had a lot going for it but the ending was simply too happy.

I was reminded of the the need people have for "feel good" stories and while there is a place for them, I cannot help thinking they often detract from the full scope of the horrors the world has faced. This is probably one of the reasons why movies like "Schindler's List" get so much attention and any Holocaust production about those who did not survive does not even get made in the States. It does so in Europe, like the Romanian movie "Son of Saul".

But yes, le Guin's take is also very interesting and highly productive as a means of enacting actual change.


s.penkevich Nocturnalux wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Nocturnalux wrote: "I actually appreciate the defeatism, it feels closer to lived experience than a lot of the "and then everything was sunshine and rainbows" fiction out there...."

Ah that is a really good way to frame it, yea. Definitely a “time and place” situation and when looking at the horrors of history (or warning about the future) a happy ending does often seem to…minimize the suffering people faced for the sake of comforting the audience. Yea, the whole need to sell over the importance of the point is extra troubling in that context.

I just sort of like Le Guin a lot so I’m partial haha but yea, and having an ambiguous end can still drive a point home without softening it. I also like ambiguous endings, I feel like reaching a natural conclusion of themes is more important to me than a plot tying itself up, but I also understand why that’s less engaging for many (and less “sellable” it’s so annoying to remember books are a commodity haha)


message 17: by PB (new) - added it

PB Excellent detailed review! Adding We & The Dispossessed to my TBR!


Julio Pino s.penkevich wrote: "Julio wrote: "Thanks, S.: The only form of rebellion allowed in any society is that which reinforces that society. This is particular true of the arts. Thus the Apple Computer ad from 1984. THE ADV..."
Dear S.: I am reminded of the old anarchist slogan, "If elections could change anything we wouldn't have any". Latin America is closer to this truth than North America, but the gap is narrowing. "1984" was published in Cuba several years before Fidel Castro died, and many readers, especially in the U.S., asked "Why?". Doesn't Cuba in many ways resemble Orwell's dystopia, with its one-party state and state controlled media? Publishing "1984" was one way for the Castro regime to argue "this novel refers to Stalinist Russia, to another world, not to our reality". Projecting your faults onto another country or age or political system is a favorite trick of both capitalists and Communists.


s.penkevich PB wrote: "Excellent detailed review! Adding We & The Dispossessed to my TBR!"

Thank you so much! Oh yay I hope you enjoy. We really blew me away and Dispossessed is one of my all time favorites.


s.penkevich Julio wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Julio wrote: "Thanks, S.: The only form of rebellion allowed in any society is that which reinforces that society. This is particular true of the arts. Thus the Apple Computer a..."

Quite true. Isn’t that a big component of Critical Race Theory too, that structural and legal progress will only occur when it becomes beneficial in a way that Is profitable and safe to the powers already in place.
Oh wow that is interesting I didn’t realize he hadn’t been available before then. Makes sense, which is sort of what he’s getting at here about how projecting and only addressing the problems of the Others is just a way to distract people from recognizing the problems in their own system or on their own “side”. Fisher wrote that the downfall of the Soviet Union allowed capitalist countries to reframe history as of capitalism was the only natural economic system and that any others were aberrations that must be destroyed and inevitably destroy themselves.


Julio Pino Si, S.: Reforms in any system are only allowed when they help prop up that system, particularly if a radical alternative is available. The U.S. instituted mild civil rights legislation and championed African independence to a great extent in order to counter the Soviet Union and its cries of American racism and neo-colonialism. You are right that "there is no alternative" is the quickest way to silence an opponent who proposes a viable alternative, as in "You either adopt free market policies or wither on the vine", or "You either vote for the Democrats or you are re-electing Donald Trump".


s.penkevich Julio wrote: "Si, S.: Reforms in any system are only allowed when they help prop up that system, particularly if a radical alternative is available. The U.S. instituted mild civil rights legislation and champion..."

Ah yea, that makes sense, and then rolled back any progress as much as they could over the years. Sure all makes you feel a sense of defeatism though, I see how Orwell came to that. And its far easier to argue against or belittle optimism than it is a sense of pessimism.


Julio Pino Dear S.: Thomas Friedman of the NEW YORK TIMES, whom I can't stand, once summed up this dilemma succinctly: "Elections in the West have become an exercise in synchronized swimming". You can extend that to music, sports, consumer products, etc. We live in a world of pseudo-choices and fake communication. To quote Pynchon from GR, "When they've got you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers".


s.penkevich Julio wrote: "Dear S.: Thomas Friedman of the NEW YORK TIMES, whom I can't stand, once summed up this dilemma succinctly: "Elections in the West have become an exercise in synchronized swimming". You can extend ..."

Oooo that Pynchon quote is perfect. And yea, thats really true, and so much of it is orchestrated through marketing and the illusion of choices (like, whats that whole big shocker study from a few years ago when they pointed out that the significant majority of an entire aisle of cereal is just 2 companies). The system is designed to uphold itself, and its the intent not a flaw. And its hard to make progress when attempting to do so is a fast way to be stripped of any power to make changes.


message 25: by Nocturnalux (last edited Jul 07, 2023 07:34PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Nocturnalux s.penkevich wrote: "Nocturnalux wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Nocturnalux wrote: "I actually appreciate the defeatism, it feels closer to lived experience than a lot of the "and then everything was sunshine and rainbows..."

I love le Guin as well and her role as a female author who goes against sci-fi being "a boy's club" cannot be overestimated. She was not the first, of course- if anything, that might very well be Mary Shelley? At least one of the first authors of the genre, as such- but the brilliant in which she wove gender concerns- and sexuality- into sci-fi make her essential reading, to my eyes.

To some extent, comparisons are not that fruitful but they can help us canvas the state of any given genre, historically speaking. It's impressive how The Dispossessed was written in 1974, and 2001: A Space Odyssey, with it's Man Man Man Man Everywhere, in 1968. I'm curious as to whether 2001's sequel addresses this- I doubt it, but am willing to give the author the benefit of the doubt- but it is truly remarkable how ahead of her time le Guin truly was. I'd also like to add that my edition of 2001 included a postscript from the 80's and Clark was still oblivious to the Man Man Man Man element in a book that is supposed to be about humanity. In other words, even in the 80's, he hadn't caught up, so to speak, with le Guin.

I got two of her books recently, am waiting for my reading schedule to clear to tackle them.


message 26: by Julio (last edited Jul 08, 2023 08:03AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Julio Pino s.penkevich wrote: "Julio wrote: "Dear S.: Thomas Friedman of the NEW YORK TIMES, whom I can't stand, once summed up this dilemma succinctly: "Elections in the West have become an exercise in synchronized swimming". Y..."
Dear S. I recently watched a short documentary on Pynchon where the filmmaker argued that his ouvre constitutes an alternate history of the United States, while at the same time chronicling the rise and fall of the counter-culture. Thus V. and CRYING OF LOT 49 are the rise, GR is the tipping point, and VINELAND and INHERENT VICE the fall. MASON & DIXON is an indictment of the Enlightenment, already present in GR, which Pynchon hates as much as Foucault.


s.penkevich Nocturnalux wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Nocturnalux wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Nocturnalux wrote: "I actually appreciate the defeatism, it feels closer to lived experience than a lot of the "and then everything was s..."

Yea! Le Guin's exploration of gender is so excellent, when I first read Left Hand of Darkness I could hardly believe it was late 60s as it feels so much more progressive than most books even of the last decade or two. But yea, so many of the sci fi lauded as great humanist futures are...only if you are a white man. I enjoy that Le Guin pretty subtly had very inclusive race depictions as well, to the extent you realize hardly anyone in the books are white. I love too her two reflection essays on the book critiquing what she wished she did more effectively on gender.

I once read someone (was it Le Guin herself?) says Le Guin was ahead of her time, sure, but mostly because everyone else is behind the times even still.


s.penkevich Julio wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Julio wrote: "Dear S.: Thomas Friedman of the NEW YORK TIMES, whom I can't stand, once summed up this dilemma succinctly: "Elections in the West have become an exercise in synch..."

Oooo I really like that theory. Makes a lot of sense . Huh I need to watch that, also reread Crying of Lot 49. I loved that but it’s been well over a decade now. Never read V though, perhaps I finally should.


Julio Pino Dear S. : from what I have heard and read CRYING OF LOT 49 was written at the time the events take place, the Berkeley Free Speech Movement and its repression. V. was re-issued when GR soared through the roof but I haven't read it either. Once I get pass its daunting size I plan to tackle AGAINST THE DAY. I dipped into it once in New York and Pynchon's topics, from anarchism to early XX-century mathematics, fascinate me too.


s.penkevich Julio wrote: "Dear S. : from what I have heard and read CRYING OF LOT 49 was written at the time the events take place, the Berkeley Free Speech Movement and its repression. V. was re-issued when GR soared throu..."

Yea Against the Day is huge, if you ever do read it let me know perhaps I’ll join you. I did Mason and Dixon years ago and I said that’s my big Pynchon for the decade but I guess I gotta do one for this decade ha. I remember like Lot 49 a lot, probably a bit more than Inherent Vice though GR still tops them both.


Nocturnalux s.penkevich wrote: "Julio wrote: "Dear S. : from what I have heard and read CRYING OF LOT 49 was written at the time the events take place, the Berkeley Free Speech Movement and its repression. V. was re-issued when G..."

I had to take Crying for the final high school exam...as in, English as second language. Quite a pick.


s.penkevich Nocturnalux wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Julio wrote: "Dear S. : from what I have heard and read CRYING OF LOT 49 was written at the time the events take place, the Berkeley Free Speech Movement and its repression. V. ..."

Oh DANG that is quite a pick indeed haha so much weird wordplay and like, songs thrown in the mix like a Tolkien novel haha


Nocturnalux s.penkevich wrote: "Nocturnalux wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Julio wrote: "Dear S. : from what I have heard and read CRYING OF LOT 49 was written at the time the events take place, the Berkeley Free Speech Movement and..."

My guess is, it was picked because it was short- at least that was one of the reasons- as it has to be covered in one of the three school terms. Another was Look Back in Anger, another odd pick, and also short. I can't recall the other one, maybe Animal Farm?


s.penkevich Nocturnalux wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Nocturnalux wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Julio wrote: "Dear S. : from what I have heard and read CRYING OF LOT 49 was written at the time the events take place, the Berkeley Free..."

Ah yea that makes sense. And then you can talk about stuff like meta stories within stories! I need to find my copy, I feel I need a reread as I only kind of vaguely remember the plot but all the cool like warring postal worker stuff ruled. Animal Farm is a good choice, we read that one is high school as well. I’ll never forget when they murder Snowball haha


message 35: by Nocturnalux (last edited Jul 09, 2023 09:44PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Nocturnalux s.penkevich wrote: "Nocturnalux wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Nocturnalux wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Julio wrote: "Dear S. : from what I have heard and read CRYING OF LOT 49 was written at the time the events take plac..."

Yeah but English is your first language. It's not mine. I can't help thinking it's something of a tall order, to expect high schoolers born and raised in a non-English country, to not only read but be able to analyse such texts, in their second language that do not even use daily.

It didn't bother me but I was reading Paradise Lost at age 14, being a language geek but most Portuguese kids were not.


Julio Pino s.penkevich wrote: "Julio wrote: "Dear S. : from what I have heard and read CRYING OF LOT 49 was written at the time the events take place, the Berkeley Free Speech Movement and its repression. V. was re-issued when G..."
INHERENT VICE actually makes you weep for the death of the counter-culture and the. domination of Nixonland. Pynchon reminds me of what Hunter S. Thompson wrote in FEAR AND LOATHING IN LAS VEGAS: "While watching the beach you could spot the exact point-break where the Sixties came to an end".


Julio Pino s.penkevich wrote: "Nocturnalux wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Nocturnalux wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Julio wrote: "Dear S. : from what I have heard and read CRYING OF LOT 49 was written at the time the events take plac..."
Dear S.: Can it be just a coincidence that every high school kid in America, at one time anyway, was assigned ANIMAL FARM or LORD OF THE FLIES? The first is an anti-communist fable and the second a horror story of what happens when "boys will be boys, and play with toys, so be strong with our beasts".


s.penkevich Julio wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Julio wrote: "Dear S. : from what I have heard and read CRYING OF LOT 49 was written at the time the events take place, the Berkeley Free Speech Movement and its repression. V. ..."

Yea that one definitely captures dying era vibes really well, all the more frightening with all the anxieties of surveillance and the Manson murders being used as excuse for police to stop any group of “weirdos” hanging out in a group. I love that scene where they get pulled over and the cop is more scared of them than they are. That whole bit with the police informant being used to disrupt political meetings and stopping the rich dude from allowing affordable housing—that book was so good.
Perfect quote for it!


s.penkevich Julio wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Nocturnalux wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Nocturnalux wrote: "s.penkevich wrote: "Julio wrote: "Dear S. : from what I have heard and read CRYING OF LOT 49 was written at the time ..."

Ha true, the cannon of 20th century classics is definitely the whole idea of defining social norms like we’ve been talking about with fairy tales and fables. Almost more insidious when it’s state requirement and made more “important” via academics


Julio Pino How ironic, then. S., that Gore Vidal, who hated "Gravity's Rainbow" called it "the perfect teaching novel". He also dismissed Pynchon's ditties inside the novel "as bad as anything from Bob Dylan".


s.penkevich Julio wrote: "How ironic, then. S., that Gore Vidal, who hated "Gravity's Rainbow" called it "the perfect teaching novel". He also dismissed Pynchon's ditties inside the novel "as bad as anything from Bob Dylan"."

HA no kidding? Booo haha, I love those songs. I always thought of it as being really Lord of the Rings-esque like hold on I know some intense shit is going down but someone wants to put it to verse real quick. I love the part where they are having a midair pie fight while singing limericks about the guy electrocuting his penis.


Julio Pino Gore had a great sense of humor, but not when it came to postmodernist literature, which he dismissed as the work of "the hacks of academe" and wrote "comparing Pynchon to Joyce is like comparing a kindergartener to a graduate student".


s.penkevich Julio wrote: "Gore had a great sense of humor, but not when it came to postmodernist literature, which he dismissed as the work of "the hacks of academe" and wrote "comparing Pynchon to Joyce is like comparing a..."

Ha harsh! Yea PoMo seems to have been pretty polarizing. I recall David Foster Wallace writing something about how Postmodernism can be really fun and funny but also sometimes so hellishly un-fun that he has to put it down. I always felt Pynchon was able to keep the former alive.


message 44: by Julio (last edited Jul 13, 2023 08:01AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Julio Pino Funny, S.: Gore was right in that hardly anybody outside of acdemia reads Barth, Gaddis, or Hawkes. Pynchon is saved by his sense of humor and anarchy. Recently I watched a Youtube commentator, young but thoroughly immersed in Pynchon, say, "There is a new breed of fiction: Post-post modernism, as typified by David Foster Wallace". Quo Vadis, American lit.?


s.penkevich Julio wrote: "Funny, S.: Gore was right in that hardly anybody outside of acdemia reads Barth, Gaddis, or Hawkes. Pynchon is saved by his sense of humor and anarchy. Recently I watched a Youtube commentator, you..."

Haha okay but post-post-modernism is kind of a great way to put it. Though like being meta about post modernism is...just post modernist still? I dont know, I give up haha. But yea, Hawkes is great but christ do you have to want it. That used to be the case with poetry as well, nobody outside academia of poetry read most of it but that seems to have gotten a new life lately. Teens buying poetry is always cool to me, i see it all the time now and almost never did 10 years ago.


Julio Pino Dear S.: Just to show you the grand canyon between academo-lit and the public, some years back one scholar estimated that John Hawkes is on his way to becoming the most studied novelist in American literature, while in drama there are more books in print about Beckett than any other playwright except Shakespeare. The return of young adults to poetry is great news. I recall the resurgence of interest began in the 1990s, but we see the same phenomenon of writers who are famous not just for 15. minutes but before 15 people.


s.penkevich Julio wrote: "Dear S.: Just to show you the grand canyon between academo-lit and the public, some years back one scholar estimated that John Hawkes is on his way to becoming the most studied novelist in American..."

Huh that makes sense about Beckett, though I do wonder if he’s heard of much outside Waiting for Godot beyond the classroom. I also wonder if in the present day anyone not currently pursuing academic literature reads Hawkes, but that said I want to revisit him. He’s one…I enjoy having finished more than the actual act of reading though.
And true. I feel like social media helped bring poetry back into larger prominence since it is very easy to share. Every time there is some tragedy or big event there’s always one poem that goes viral.


message 48: by Julio (last edited Jul 18, 2023 07:59AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Julio Pino Very true, S. : Beckett is not cited or referenced in popular culture the same way as some of his American contemporaries, such as Williams and Miller, although the phrase "Waiting for (fill in the blank) has entered the vernacular. Polanski says he wanted to call his masterpiece, CUL-DE-SAC, "Waiting for Kaltenbach" but the studio vetoed the idea. We live in an era when even the classics are only granted their 15 minutes, and then disappear into academic discourse. As for contemporary philosophers, forget about it. No one knows them outside of philosophy journals.


s.penkevich Julio wrote: "Very true, S. : Beckett is not cited or referenced in popular culture the same way as some of his American contemporaries, such as Williams and Miller, although the phrase "Waiting for (fill in the..."

Ha yea and if someone writing as a philosopher does get their name out there it tends to not be for good reasons, like Jordan Peterson being an absolute loon on social media. Slavoj Žižek is probably the most known in the present? I can’t really think of any others though, that whole realm seems more taken over by personalities than philosophers now?
And true, there does seem less “sticking power” and more just big bestsellers but those tend to fade away in 5-10 years. All the Light We Cannot See was huge a decade ago and still comes up from stuff like the NEA, that’s really the only one I can think of for mass popularity off the top of my head beyond books that still have a more cult classic popularity (curious to see if What the Crawdads Sing will hang on…I feel if a book has an underwhelming film that’s almost a death sentence)


Julio Pino s.penkevich wrote: "Julio wrote: "Very true, S. : Beckett is not cited or referenced in popular culture the same way as some of his American contemporaries, such as Williams and Miller, although the phrase "Waiting fo..."
Zizek is intelligent enough to realize that first you become a media star, then you can discuss how Hegel ties into Batman. In F. Scott Fitzgerald's THIS SIDE OF PARADISE the narrator presents a list of "ten American authors whom no one will be talking about in ten years", including the queen of best-sellers, Fanny Herst. A while back I heard someone say, "Do you notice how almost no one quotes Gore Vidal anymore?" Well, I do, but it is hard to accept that the man who once said "never miss an opportunity to have sex or go on television" has been nearly forgotten so fast.


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