Apple Has Sold Approximately 200,000 Vision Pro Headsets

[j26]

...

With regards to use outside, maybe not on public transport at first, but what about Starbucks or a library? ...

Because, like it or not, many people will assume you're watching porn.

 

[pacalis]

Yes, but your $399 figure for the Palm Treo was too high. As I pointed out, with discount/rebate and 2 year contract, the Palm Treos were selling for $99 to $199.

I think my points were very clear. The Treo was an illustrative example. If it helps you get off the Treo, consider the Nokia N95 launched in 2007 for €550 (est. US $730).

Nokia N95 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Everything else you're writing - particularly comparing premium products to the bottom of the market, is also total red herring.

Apple typically enters with a premium product at the top end of the mass market. This is not that. There is nothing in the marketplace that's even remotely spec'd or priced like the AVP.

 

[Velli]

But the purchase terms were consistent i.e., consumer prices didn't drop because the carrier added a 2 year contract requirement. It wasn’t like the $599 price was with a 2 year contract but the $399 price wasn’t. Both required 2 year contracts and AT&T was covering a portion of the purchase price in both cases. My point was that the purchase prices under the same terms notably dropped.

You still don’t get it. It was not a 33% price drop, because 599 was not the full price of the product. Like you said, AT&T covered a portion of the purchase price. Which you paid AT&T to do. Apple’s revenue per phone did not drop 33%. If you want to compare the percentage drop, you need to look at the price without contract.

 

[webkit]

“Well, we knew Palm and Cingular were launching the Treo 750 on January 7th (i.e. the unofficial first day of CES), but now we've got the full skinny on the release. Customers will be able to get theirs at Cingular retail stores, or Cingular or Palm's online stores on January 8th for $399 with two year service agreement (and $100 mail-in rebate).”

Nobody is questioning whether or not there were cheaper devices. The question is where was the upper end of the market in relation to Apple, because that’s where they play.

If you really insist on comparing the lower end of the market to Apple products, we can do that though. iPhone was 5x more than a $99 smartphone. AVP is 14x more expensive than a Meta Quest 2 at $250. Not even close. 🤣

And the Palm Treo 680 with contract and discounts was also available for $19.99 at the time thereby making the iPhone 25 (vs. $499 iPhone) to 30 (vs. $599 iPhone) times more expensive.

 

[webkit]

I think my points were very clear. The Treo was an illustrative example. If it helps you get off the Treo, consider the Nokia N95 launched in 2007 for €550 (est. US $730).

The N95 may have been higher priced without a contract but with contracts (how iPhone was sold), it became available for less than the launch prices of the iPhone.

Apple typically enters with a premium product at the top end of the mass market. This is not that. There is nothing in the marketplace that's even remotely spec'd or priced like the AVP.

That's essentially been my point. It should not be a surprise to see the VP at the top end of the market at launch similar to how other Apple products like the Macintosh and iPhone had been.

 

[webkit]

You still don’t get it. It was not a 33% price drop, because 599 was not the full price of the product. Like you said, AT&T covered a portion of the purchase price. Which you paid AT&T to do. Apple’s revenue per phone did not drop 33%. If you want to compare the percentage drop, you need to look at the price without contract.

I get it, and it was a 33% to 40% drop to consumers which was my point. Yes, the "full price" (had AT&T offered it without a contract) would've been higher than launch prices just as the "full price" would’ve been higher than the reduced prices.

 

[vipergts2207]

And the Palm Treo 680 with contract and discounts was also available for $19.99 at the time thereby making the iPhone 25 (vs. $499 iPhone) to 30 (vs. $599 iPhone) times more expensive.

View attachment 2345363

And when was it on sale for that? Before or after the launch of the Treo 750? It’s no secret that most consumer electronics go on sale at some point after launch, especially when superseded by newer models. In fact it was still being offered for sale even after the iPhone 3G ($199) and the App Store had launched, not being discontinued until Fall 2008. I can imagine at that point with the iPhone rapidly gaining market share that they had to practically give these things away.

Additionally, you might even be able to find a smartphone having been offered for “free” with a 2-year contract. It doesn’t mean the iPhone cost infinity times more. These figures don’t take into account the subsidy built into the contract that the customer is paying for. Only a fool would believe carriers were giving out discounted smartphones from the goodness of their hearts.

 

[pacalis]

It doesn’t mean the iPhone cost infinity times more.

Hang on... If Webkit is making the case that the AVP effectively costs infinity times more than the competition, that's close enough to reality that I'm happy to concede the point. lol

 

[Velli]

I get it, and it was a 33% to 40% drop to consumers which was my point. Yes, the "full price" (had AT&T offered it without a contract) would've been higher than launch prices just as the "full price" would’ve been higher than the reduced prices.

And my objection was to your claim:
“If the second generation VP saw the same price drop percentage, it wold have a retail price of around $1,160 next year.”

Comparing the consumer price without taking the contract into consideration is not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[HDFan]

$3500 is affordable to 95% of consumers if they choose it and save for it.

Average world income is $9500. Although U.S. income is much higher (~$62k) costs (housing, medical, etc.) are much higher as well.

"Only 44 percent of U.S. adults say they would pay an emergency expense of $1,000 or more from their savings,"

"35 percent of people say they would borrow to pay a $1,000 unexpected expense, either by financing with a credit card and paying it off over time, taking a personal loan or turning to friends or family."

Bankrate's Annual Emergency Fund Report | Bankrate

59% of U.S. adults say they’re uncomfortable with their emergency savings, according to Bankrate's latest survey.

www.bankrate.com

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

$3500 is affordable to 95% of consumers if they choose it and save for it. This isn't a $200, 000 G wagon. Now...will lots of people want this? I doubt it but we will see how it does. And I will be checking it out for my job.

It’s obtainable to a lot of people who are modest to high earners but it’s still a significant enough purchase where you have to be 100% invested in the need for it. I think that’s what makes it niche as many of us think it’s a cool product, but would never personally buy one as we can’t really justify a use case for it. I have no idea what it would offer me or replace that I already use? I’d rather watch other people use it.

 

[webkit]

And when was it on sale for that? Before or after the launch of the Treo 750? It’s no secret that most consumer electronics go on sale at some point after launch, especially when superseded by newer models. In fact it was still being offered for sale even after the iPhone 3G ($199) and the App Store had launched, not being discontinued until Fall 2008. I can imagine at that point with the iPhone rapidly gaining market share that they had to practically give these things away.

Before the iPhone launched but after the 750. As far as the 750 is concerned, below is an ad for the 750 also around the time the iPhone launched.

Additionally, you might even be able to find a smartphone having been offered for “free” with a 2-year contract. It doesn’t mean the iPhone cost infinity times more. These figures don’t take into account the subsidy built into the contract that the customer is paying for. Only a fool would believe carriers were giving out discounted smartphones from the goodness of their hearts.

My point has been that $99 to $199 was the "norm" for smartphones at the time the iPhone launched and the iPhone (also with a contract) was a lot more expensive than that. Again, I've been trying to be a bit more realistic with my range and not start at something like $19.99 (or less) even though smartphones could indeed be had for even less than $99. The iPhone was about 3 to 5 times more than the "norm" for comparable smartphones at time of launch and the VP is similarly more expensive than the "norm" for comparable mixed-realty headsets today.

 

[webkit]

And my objection was to your claim:
“If the second generation VP saw the same price drop percentage, it wold have a retail price of around $1,160 next year.”

Comparing the consumer price without taking the contract into consideration is not an apples to apples comparison.

My comment was simply referencing what consumers paid for a device and how that price dropped under same purchase terms. In that sense, it absolutely is apples to apples.

 

[vipergts2207]

Before the iPhone launched but after the 750. As far as the 750 is concerned, below is an ad for the 750 also around the time the iPhone launched.

Oh so it went on sale when another device had superseded it. Such a shocker...

Also cite your dated sources. Don't just post undated screencaps.

My point has been that $99 to $199 was the "norm" for smartphones at the time the iPhone launched and the iPhone (also with a contract) was a lot more expensive than that. Again, I've been trying to be a bit more realistic with my range and not start at something like $19.99 (or less) even though smartphones could indeed be had for even less than $99. The iPhone was about 3 to 5 times more than the "norm" for comparable smartphones at time of launch and the VP is similarly more expensive than the "norm" for comparable mixed-realty headsets today.

View attachment 2345769

You can list expected typical sales on deprecated devices all you want. I'm going to trust Apple's own contemporaneous market research as well as the multiple dated sources from that time period that I've cited. Again, clearly nobody is buying what you're selling.

 

[webkit]

Oh so it went on sale when another device had superseded it. Such a shocker...

Also cite your dated sources. Don't just post undated screencaps.

You can list expected typical sales on deprecated devices all you want. I'm going to trust Apple's own contemporaneous market research as well as the multiple dated sources from that time period that I've cited. Again, clearly nobody is buying what you're selling.

I already stated they were from around the time the iPhone launched. The $19.99 Treo 680 ad was from June 16, 2007 (and may have run before and after that) or about two weeks before the iPhone launched. The $149.99 Treo 750 ad was from July 5, 2007 (and may have run before and after that) or about a week after the iPhone launched.

Once again, these (and others I posted) were examples of what smartphone pricing was like around the time the iPhone launched. The iPhone was significantly more expensive than smartphones from companies like BlackBerry. Palm, etc. However, I didn’t go to the extremes like using a range starting at $19.99 even though some smartphones were indeed selling at that price or even lower at the time. The range I used was $99 to $199 which was definitely more the norm than some of the tiny price premiums some have suggested on here.

 

[vipergts2207]

I already stated they were from around the time the iPhone launched. The $19.99 Treo 680 ad was from June 16, 2007 (and may have run before and after that) or about two weeks before the iPhone launched. The $149.99 Treo 750 ad was from July 5, 2007 (and may have run before and after that) or about a week after the iPhone launched.

Once again, these (and others I posted) were examples of what smartphone pricing was like around the time the iPhone launched. The iPhone was significantly more expensive than smartphones from companies like BlackBerry. Palm, etc. However, I didn’t go to the extremes like using a range starting at $19.99 even though some smartphones were indeed selling at that price or even lower at the time.

What you state means nothing, just post the source data.

The range I used was $99 to $199 which was definitely more the norm than some of the tiny price premiums some have suggested on here.

By which you mean Apple themselves as well as other tech authorities. But hey, I mean you've got undated newspaper clippings...

Palm Treo 750 launch presentation, including price and release date

Well, we knew Palm and Cingular were launching the Treo 750 on January 7th (i.e. the unofficial first day of CES), but now we've got the full skinny on the release. Customers will be able to get theirs at Cingular retail stores, or Cingular or Palm's online stores on January 8th for $399 with...

www.engadget.com

Treo 750 In Stores

Palm got its highly anticipated Treo 750 smartphone off the ground a little ahead of schedule, with handsets now avaiable through Cingular. Expect to pay $400 with a two-year contract, plus at least $40 a month for an unlimited data plan. The Treo 750 runs on Windows Mobile 5.0 and includes a...

www.wired.com

Palm Treo 750 - black (AT&T) review: Palm Treo 750 - black (AT&T)

Palm Treo 750 - black (AT&T)

www.cnet.com

 

[webkit]

What you state means nothing, just post the source data.

The source for the both of those ads was the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

By which you mean Apple themselves as well as other tech authorities. But hey, I mean you've got undated newspaper clippings...

I gave you the dates for the two Palm Treo ads, and have already stated that my $99 to $199 range was regarding smartphone prices around the time the iPhone launched. The Verizon $199 BB 8830 offer I had posted was running starting in early June 2007 (if not before that) which was just before the iPhone went on sale on June 29th.

The iPhone at launch was notably more expensive than typical smartphones available at the time and was even more so versus the general cell phone market.

 

[vipergts2207]

The source for the both of those ads was the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.





I gave you the dates for the two Palm Treo ads, and have already stated that my $99 to $199 range was regarding smartphone prices around the time the iPhone launched. The Verizon $199 BB 8830 offer I had posted was running starting in early June 2007 (if not before that) which was just before the iPhone went on sale on June 29th.

The iPhone at launch was notably more expensive than typical smartphones available at the time and was even more so versus the general cell phone market.

Sure bud, got it. Obviously, you know more than Apple's market research team. You should give Cook a call and ask about a job.

 

[Born Again]

More than 5 billion copies of the Bible have sold. Clearly "Facebook" and "PlayStations" are flops. I know that comparison is spurious and a bit flippant, but so was your comment.

Now for the real comparison.

The Oculus Rift (what became the Meta Quest) was released in 2016, as was the PlayStation VR. Both (including iterations over the years) were/are considerably less expensive. Both have had 7+ years to sell "millions".

It's interesting you can call something a flop before it's even released by comparing it to products that have been out for years and are much less expensive.

To use the old car analogy, is a Bentley Continental GT a flop because it doesn't sell as much as a Honda Civic, or do those cars have different audiences? We don'y need to keep this analogy going but let's look at something related.

The all-time best selling single computer model in the world is probably the Commodore 64. That was 40+ years ago. Where's Commodore International now? [Hint: out of business 30 years ago]. Units sold doesn't mean everything. The C64 was hugely influential as a computer, but it was other companies that defined the market in the coming years. Commodore International fizzled out in a large part because Apple and IBM PCs defined the computer market. Again, Commodore did not.

Although Apple was highly successful with the Mac (and Apple II), the original Mac took almost 2 years to sell 500,000. That's actually quite impressive, considering the cost at the time. It took time, however, for Apple to ultimately be successful with Macs and other products.

200,000 AVP sold before release is quite impressive, considering the cost and the limited group of people who find it appealing to consider buying one.

It will take time before we see what happens with the AVP. Maybe this will be a flop. We don't know. Calling it one before it's even released is rather premature.

It's okay to not be interested in the AVP. You don't need to buy one. I won't buy one. I am interested to see where it goes though. It has the potential to be a product that will be influential over time. As it is, the AVP is a really nice tech demo version of Spatial Computing's (to use Apple's term) potential. Versions for the masses will be forthcoming, unless this fizzles out and Apple executives decide to cut their losses. It's very well a possibility that the AVP will flop, but it's not possible to accurately call it a flop at this point. Apple is playing a long game with this headset. This is not the product Apple wants most people to buy. That product is 5 - 10 years away from release. Smart businesses are run with 1 year, 3 year, 5 year, and longer plans. Apple easily has a 10+ year plan with Spatial Computing (augmented reality, etc.). To paraphrase something that Steve Jobs might not have said (but is attributed to him): Apple's job is to figure out what customers are going to want before they do. People don't know what they want until it's shown to them.

The AVP probably isn't what customers want. What customers want will be the next version of this or the next one after that. This is just laying the foundation for the future.

Apple glasses. You heard it hear first