Fantasy Book Club discussion

I've noticed most of the books discussed here are high fantasy or epic even (such as Martin or Jordan). So I know just about everyone is into high fantasy.

But who is into the hack n slash fantasy? Like the reams of pages written for the Forgotten Realms or the fantasy worlds created for very short novels with one major conflict like Elaine Cunningham?

I love Jordan and Martin and all the rest... but I also love some Elaine Cunningham and Ed Greenwood. The Shadows and Starlight Trilogy (Forgotten Realms Starlight & Shadows: Gift Set) by Cunningham is one of my favourite series ever. Greenwood's Shadow of the Avatar trilogy was also really good.

These are lighter novels. There's less character development and less relationship development, and more focus on incredible conflicts and really intricate plot twists.

Does anyone else like these or am I a pariah of the fantasy genre? If you do like them.. suggestions??

You're not a pariah, Viktoria. At least not in my book.

I like "slumming" just as much as the next guy (or gal), though a little hack-&-slash can go a long way for me. I agree with you re Elaine Cunningham, she's usually able to churn out a decent novel. I wasn't blown away by it but her Counselers & Kings series (also Forgotten Realms) was OK.

Actually, I first encountered Jordan with his Conan pastiches from the '80s: Conan the Defender and Conan the Invincible. I remember thinking that he had really captured Howard's original barbarian. And, of course, there's always the original master himself, particularly Hour of the Dragon or "Red Nails" or "People of the Black Circle" and (probably the best of the lot) "Beyond the Black River."

Oh, yes, and Richard Baker's The Last Mythal series (Forgotten Realms) is good. Like Cunningham, he can rise above the material to write very readable, if guilty, pleasures.

Does Steven Brust's Taltos series count as hack-&-slash? Regardless, he's good too.

I'm not sure if Scott Lynch could be considered hack n' slash (is that the same thing as sword and sorcery?), but his writing doesn't quite strike me as epic either. His Gentleman Bastard books focus more on a small set of characters and the development is awesome. I'd recommend him.

I tend to read a factual book & a novel at the same time. The novel is my escape. I generally don't like it to be too heavy, so I'm with you on S&S or lighter fantasies. I've never been able to get into some of the heavier ones like Robert Jordan's tomes. Too much like work.

I love David Eddings, L.E. Modesitt Jr., Robert E. Howard & Karl Edward Wagner. Very readable & relaxing with interesting worlds & simple problems.

I'm not sure that I would classify the lines of Hack and Slash vs epic fantasy but I would say there is a difference between "Light fun plot driven" shorter works (i.e. 400 pages or less) and the larger volumes in the 700 - 1000 range. I'm bogged down right now because I'm attempting to read 3 very large works (Eye of the World, Name of Wind, and Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell) so instead I picked up The Amulet of Samarkand (The Bartimaeus Trilogy, Book 1) and man I just loved a nice light fun read!! I think it was around 467 pages but very large and wide spaced font so would proably come out more like 350 in a different format.

But I'm sure my perception is being clouded by my husband's book which is on the shorter side. I think the review at Cheryl's Book Nook said it well...

Don’t let the size of The Crown Conspiracy by Michael J. Sullivan fool you at only 296 pages. It may be shorter then some of the books I have read but it sure does pack quite the punch. I say “The smaller the package, the greater they are”.

jim, u love david eddings? so u read the belgariad, or another one of his? cuz i LOVE the belgariad, and i cant find anyone who has even HEARD of it! if u read it and liked it, i would love to talk about it w/ u.

Jenn, I did like the Belgariad & the Mallorean was OK. I didn't care much for the other books like Begarath, Polgara or the Mrin Codex. I liked the Elenium & thought the Tamuli was just OK. My wife, daughter & youngest boy all feel about the same way about them.

We read & re-read the Belgariad enough times that I had to replace it. The paperbacks just fell apart. Part of the reason was we started reading the series shortly after it came out & had to wait a year for each new book. Of course, after a year or two, we'd have to skim the older books to make sure we were up to speed for the new one. Multiply that by 7 or 8 years... We read them a LOT!

lol, my dad just got them second hand from a library sale for me. this was like in august and i already know a couple of em almost by heart. i havent read the other ones, but when i finish the series (yet again) a teacher at my school is going to let me borrow his copy of polgara. im not really sure y tho, as i dont know him. but he saw me with one of the books and hes just like 'oh u read thos two, when ur done with it tell me and let u borrow some of my books'.

anywhoo, i LOVED the belgariad, but all my friends make fun of me when they see me with the books, even my friends who also read fantasy novels from like, the 80's. so its nice to meet someone who likes the books too. @_@

I find both "long epics" and "short fun reads" both enjoyable. The short fun reads are good because I can get more done!! But for instance I'm currently in Name of the Wind which is "longish" but I'm enjoying it so it is going fast. In the "short fun" category - I just read Crown Conspiracy and it is the perfect "easy romp" kind of book

Jenn, try fantasticfiction.com & use it to look up authors & books. If you look up David Eddings, you'll see all the books he wrote & their order.

You'll also see that there are 5 books in the Belgariad, 5 more in the Mallorean. Begarath, Polgara & the Mrin Codex are additional to those 10 books. There was a lot of repetition in them for the amount they added to the story, IMO. If you're really nuts about the series, you might enjoy them.

Does your school library allow you to borrow from the county library through them? I think one of my kids schools did that, but can't recall for sure. It's a great way to try books. I like to collect books, especially ones that the rest of the family likes. We have our own library & book club built-in!

ya, i knew about the other books eddings wrote, idk if ill be able to get them from the library tho. my school i know will not have them 'cause they have nothing. the public library might tho. of course i can alway borrow them from that teacher at my school, but i probably wont ask him, 'cause i dont have him for any classes and i dont really know him.

Jane wrote: "I find both "long epics" and "short fun reads" both enjoyable. The short fun reads are good because I can get more done!! But for instance I'm currently in Name of the Wind which is "longish" but..."

Crown Conspiracy is on my must have list at the moment. I looked for it at the store and they had none :( I was not pleased. Hopefully I will get it soon!

I agree that shorter reads, that I lovingly call hack n slash, are great for a good time when you cant get too involved or in depth because of whatever is going on. I think I need a good 4 months worth for january thru april.

I'm going to start on Philip Jose Farmer's 'World of Tiers' series. It's SF/Fantasy & I read the first book in the early 70's. By the end of that decade, 5 books were out & the hero is left stranded - a literal cliff hanger. After a decade or so, I gave up looking for the series to be finished. I just found out he did finish the series, in the 90's - finally!!!

I got the books from BookMooch & PaperBackSwap & plan to read all 7 of them now. I hope they're as good as I recall, although I doubt they will be. Still, I have to figure out what happens to the hero! He's been stranded now since the 80's!!!

Jim - I'm in the same situation as you were.

Could you please list all of the World of Tiers books here, in order, so I can finish the series. I think I lost track after book 4....

Thank you,
Jed

Jed, follow this link:
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/f/p...
Fantastic Fiction allows you to look up a book or author name & find out all about them. At the bottom, there are generally links to fan sites or that of the author, if they have them. The link above will give you all the series & their order. It was while I was looking something else up that I found the other two books were even out.

I'm on the second book now & the first was as good as I recalled, which is amazing. There are some holes, but it was written in 1965 & has weathered the time pretty well.

Viktoria wrote: "Crown Conspiracy is on my must have list at the moment. I looked for it at the store and they had none :( I was not pleased. Hopefully I will get it soon!

Sorry you are having problems...Michael is published by a fairly small press - not one of the big guys like Tor or DAW or ACE etc. Any bookstore can get you a copy it just takes 2 - 3 days. We also sell signed copies from our website

Viktoria as the group is still only young (has only been going for about 2 months now) we havent got a lot of different threads started yet, so just start a thread on any series or novels you enjoy and see who else is interested.

JJ wrote: "Viktoria as the group is still only young (has only been going for about 2 months now) we havent got a lot of different threads started yet, so just start a thread on any series or novels you enjoy..."

Will do :) I already started one in the series section. I was just interested in people's views of high fantasy and short fun reads. I have met a lot of people that are terribly picky about one or the other.

Robin wrote: "Viktoria wrote: "Crown Conspiracy is on my must have list at the moment. I looked for it at the store and they had none :( I was not pleased. Hopefully I will get it soon!

Sorry you are having ..."

I have ordered it from the website. Thank you very much *big grin*

I like both. It depends on what I'm in the mood for. I have no desire to sustain high fantasy all the time, I need something light also, where I don't have to think and analyze. Sometimes an easy read, a simple quest is all I want.

Well, I can't say I've read a great many hack and slash novels. Series like Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms aren't typically the books I go for, but that's not to say they can't be fun to read. Sometimes it's nice to have a break between long epics to read something light and quick. It can be refreshing.

I just bought my first David Gemmell book, Legend. He definitely fits the hack and slash bill. :)

I do like stories fast paced stories with a good deal of action - but just hack and slash - ugh! I want it all - plot characters etc.

"Hack and Slash" refers not to the content but to the subgenre. It's not something I really know how to explain, honestly. I know it when I read it. They're more light-hearted frequently -- almost comedic. They're sometimes fast-paced and short. Sometimes the characters are a little more 2D than 3D or it's part of some larger world with an open-ended series by many different authors. And all too often, other fantasy authors look down upon these sorts of books and the people that write them. Honestly they can be quite good at times (and at times, really not so much..).

Hack and Slash is like a curse word name for Heroic Fantasy/S&S. Sword and Sorcery has many legendary writers to be called something like hack and slash.

Comparing dungeon and dragon to Robert E Howard,Leiber,Moorcock,Gemmell and co are insulting IMO.

Just because its not High Fantasy doesnt mean its hack and slash only.

That's true, Mohammed....though I've say that the term "low fantasy" seems insulting too. I've seen the hack & slash field described that way too....

and there are some decent stories in the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, etc worlds as well, I might add.....a good storyteller can tell a good story, regardless to a genre or class his/her work is placed in......

Low fantasy is much more correct since its name for Gemmell like fantast that is low on magic. Low fantasy means lack of magic or very little magic.

Not like S&S where there are alot of magic,other supernatural stuff.

Its simple Heroic fantasy is the modern name for S&S,other more adventure,fast paced fantasy.

I dont like the idea of High Fantasy being better just because its huge books about politics,many characters.

I'm terribly sorry the tongue in cheek use of the term was offensive to you. In the future, perhaps one person should singularly define every fantasy term that is vague or has double meanings. Then we can all conform to that one person's definitions, regardless of our own views, opinions, and beliefs. Then you would never be insulted. Unless of course, the definitions were not yours. I guess every plan has its flaws, no?

Feel free to ignore the conversation if it insults you and all you admire so horribly.

I've never heard or seen the term 'low fantasy' apply to or used in context of the amount of magic a fantasy has. Interesting.

Viktoria, in another topic, a writer asked for definitions of a robot, which I thought was fairly obvious & straightforward. I was VERY wrong. I would think fantasy terms would be even less definable.

I saw low fantasy is apparently a term according to wiki.


Viktoria :

Hack and Slash have never been the name for Heroic Fantasy. Check out the history of the terms in wiki. No one in fantasy has ever called Heroic fantasy Hack and slash other than something to offend.

Its like calling Urban fantasy chick lit or romance novels just because there are Twillight and their type.

If it was tonge in cheek i wouldnt care. But it seemed like it was used as a serious.

Great S&S/Heroic fantasy writers made me enjoy fantasy and a fan. Im not a fan of High/epic usually but i would never call any type of fantasy a bad name.

It just remind me off people who look down fantasy,SF as something bad to read. I didnt expect to see it a fantasy group.

One of the issues with typing is there is no body language & emoticons aren't always properly used. Words aren't always used correctly & folks don't get a quick chance to say, "I mean..."

It's just an opinion by a stranger, so no big deal.

Robert E. Howard's Conan books with Frank Frazetta cover art is what got me interested in reading. Is there anything that makes a young boy want to read more than seeing a chained barbarian straddling a huge snake with half seen monsters lurking in the background? (The cover to Conan Conan the Usurper). if so, it was the same barbarian standing at the top of a mountain of dead enemies with a scantily clad, curvy girl clinging to his leg (The cover of Conan Conan the Warrior.)

Perhaps it's not GREAT writing, but I can't think of any higher praise for any book than to make a kid want to read. It's why J.K. Rowling will always have a place near & dear to my heart. Her books took a dyslexic little girl from hating to read to loving it - my daughter.

So I don't really care what any one else calls it or thinks about it. If they want to call it names, it only lowers my opinion of them. Personally, I didn't read anything horrible, though.

Mohammed wrote: "I saw low fantasy is apparently a term according to wiki.


Viktoria :

Hack and Slash have never been the name for Heroic Fantasy. Check out the history of the terms in wiki. No one in fantasy ..."

When your horse lets you down, feel free to contact me privately. I don't feel this is the place to have a personal disagreement over something that is clearly a matter of misunderstanding. If you believe that I look down upon fantasy, clearly you have not read a single bit of anything I have posted, looked at my profile, or glanced at my bookshelves. I'm sorry your sense of humour doesn't mesh well with mine. Lastly, technicalities of the exact origins of words have little to do with how I people in my immediate vicinity tend to use them. That would be called laymen's terms. If you wish for a technical discussion on exact definitions or specific subtopics in the genre, I'm not sure you will find that topic here. Perhaps you should start one. My apologies if I have ruined the entire group experience for you with a single term. Have a good day.

Viktoria wrote: "Mohammed wrote: "I saw low fantasy is apparently a term according to wiki.


Viktoria :

Hack and Slash have never been the name for Heroic Fantasy. Check out the history of the terms in wiki. N..."

You havent ruined anything.

I just wanted to point the term sounded like an insult. I even thought you meant something different from Heroic fantasy.

I didnt see the name as a joke hence the misunderstanding.

No need to apologize.

I've always found Robert Jordan to be enormously heavy writing and I've only made it through the first two books with a long break in between. (And with his unfortunate and too soon death, I'm unlikely to ever finish the series) I liked the story as it unfolded, but after 800 pages I just needed a break.
As for GRRM, I never even made it through the first book. Gave up when I realised that I disliked every single character in it.
On the other hand I really enjoy David Eddings (unlike most others, it seems, I prefer Elenium & Tamuli), and the Narnia Chronicles by CS Lewis, or the Septimus Heap series by Angie Sage. Why yes, I do actually have a childish soul. :)
Currently I'm very much enjoying the Runelords series by David Farland, which is a lot darker than Eddings, so I'm not sure where they fit in on the scale.

Angrboda, I could never make it into Jordan's series at all, but my wife likes it. Good news, the last book of the series is supposed to be released this year. Here is more about it:
http://www.dragonmount.com/Books/Memo...
Basically, Brandon Sanderson is supposed to be writing it based on Jordan's notes.

I like Eddings Belgariad & Elenium the best. I found the Mallorean & Tamuli a bit much. Still enjoyable, though. We read the Belgariad so many times in my family that I had to replace the books. My wife & I started reading it right after the 2d book, Queen of Sorcery came out. It was a year's wait for each new book & we'd often re-read the previous books before reading the new one. Then the kids each read them a time or two, so our copies were a bit too well read!

Jim, I might get around to reading the rest then, it would be nice to finish the story at least. Although I doubt it'll go any faster than before. I still don't really feel ready to give the third book a poke. It the same experience I had with Tolkien. Good story, just really difficult to read.

I found the Mallorean kind of boring compared to the others. All they do is travel around a lot. The Elenium is definitely my favourite of them all though. I have read it more times in both danish and english than I can count. The first time when I was fifteen, and I absolutely swallowed them. I was disappointed by his latest series though, The Dreamers. Seemed to me like all the books had the exact same plot.

We didn't like 'The Dreamers' either. We read the first one - or part of it in some cases - put it down & never got another by him & Leigh. We just couldn't care less about the hero, the world or anything else.

I agree with you about the Mallorean. Like I said, it was a bit too much. I read the other books; Belgarath, etc... once & found them just a rip off. Very few new facts to add to the story or unreadable, for the last book, the Codex one.

I felt pretty much the same about the Tamuli. I don't like it when something is 'gone forever' & then not, either.

The good thing about the Dreamers was that they were quickly read. I've got the Mrin Codex, but I've never managed to actually get through it. It's too dry and reads like an encyclopedia.
I liked the Redemption of Althalus, though. I liked that it was a stand-alone rather than a series so he had less space to get the plot underway. It's still the same plot of super-powerful things though.
I did wonder at the end of the Elenium too, when they supposedly got rid of Bhelliom. Throwing something in the sea, no matter which sea, is not and has never been a guarantee that it won't resurface. I thought Aphrael should know that. Obviously she did, but then they might as well just have kept it.

I had a question about Dragonlance and didn't want to totally divert the intro thread, but couldn't find anywhere else to ask it except here... so, here goes.

An ex of mine was into the Dragonlance Chronicles, and we listened to it on audiobook - but I had a hard time following it. (Not a fan of audiobooks, really, in general.) Anyway, I've been thinking about reading the Chronicles at some point - but I had a question as to which version.

Of course there's the original trilogy, but I recently saw that they've made a young adult version, edited for younger readers. I'm not looking for a committment concerning Dragonlance, just something quick and fun - so I was wondering if anyone's read the YA versions and if they know the differences between it and the adult versions, and, more importantly, whether it's written for a "young" young adult target (9-14) or an "older" young adult target (14-20s).

Also, just today while I was browsing Amazon (to try and get this very question answered), I discovered that they also have a graphic novel version. I'm a big fan of graphic novels, and so was also wondering if anyone's read this version of the novels. The general vibe I got from amazon is that they don't have quite the same depth and breadth as the originals, but that they get the spirit of the story and are generally well done. I'm thinking this might be the version I end up going for - but was hoping maybe someone had experience with the different versions and could put in their recommendations.

Thanks :)

I liked the Dragonlance Chronicles trilogy. I think it was one of the early ones & I read it shortly after it came out. I didn't get into a lot of the rest. Too many books churned out & I wasn't sure of the order or couldn't get all of the groups. It's been a long time, though.

I liked their Dark Sword trilogy, although it was kind of depressing.

Viktoria wrote: "I've noticed most of the books discussed here are high fantasy or epic even (such as Martin or Jordan). So I know just about everyone is into high fantasy.

But who is into the hack n slash fa..."

You know what I like in the way of 'hack & slash'? I really like The War God's Own! It's light reading and funny as all get out.

I am totally surprised that no one has thrown RA Salvatore (Forgotten Realms) into the mix yet. Although there is a fair amount of character development here, I would definitely say that Salvatore knows how to write a kick-butt fight scene or five. It's definitely a lighter read than other books, and it's still enjoyable. I'm currently reading Dune and didn't realize it was that heavy of a read (still not as bad as Jordan, but I still love WoT). Salvatore is one of those authors that you can read to take a break.

I'm putting a plug in for Avempartha and The Crown Conspiracy as not necessarily "hack n slash" but definitely easier reads with plenty of wry humor. They are great summer reading.

My SO, when I mentioned to him I was thinking of getting something in the way of Dragonlance, mentioned I'd probably like Salvatore's Forgotten Realms stuff. In the not too distant future I'm probably going to be getting the graphic novelizations of the Drizzt stories.

Martha wrote: "Viktoria wrote: "I've noticed most of the books discussed here are high fantasy or epic even (such as Martin or Jordan). So I know just about everyone is into high fantasy.

But who is into th..."

I will need to pick that up. I have not read it yet.

if you're talking about The War God's Own, I think you'll really enjoy it. Plus, there are, so far, two more books to follow Baz's adventures. I just wish he'd hurry up and write some more. Another fun series - not exactly 'hack and slash' is the Phule's Company series by Robert Asprin - may be more science fiction than fantasy but still a heck of a fun read.

Phule's Company is brilliant fun, but it is SF, no question. I loved it.

I thought the Phule's company was rather mediocre. it's like he had a checklist of character types to use, and he went down it. Brilliant commander, check, mild-mannered big guy, check, ferocious little guy (and of course they get partnered), the con man...I suppose the later books could have had more original stories but I wasn't interested in more. It isn't first place in my How not to write a novel list (which goes to Her Majesty's Wizard), but it's up there.

I didn't read that book for logic or depth, but to laugh. What appealed to me wasn't the craft or the depth. It was the inventive ways the main character used his misfits and his money to beat the rigged system. Struck a chord that made me laugh, for the spin swapped end for end - usually it's the poor misfit gets dumped on, and has to be clever and inventive. The fact the con man was rich was an original take.

But I can see if the wit or the humor didn't pan for some, the story wouldn't work.

Martha, doesn't Oath of Swords come before War God's Own? And if you get a newer version of Oath of Swords, it comes with a additional novella, I hear.
I also remember reading a novella in the same setting (Baz is a minor character), but have read so many lately I can't remember (or find it). Could be the above one, though. Anyway, I'm with you. Been a while, but they are fun.

In order:
Oath of Swords
The War God's Own
Wind Rider's Oath

Finally found it. Short story in Masters of Fantasy which was a Baen book with short stories set in some of their authors' famous worlds.
By the way Oath of Swords and War God's Own are available at the Baen Free Library.

Masters of Fantasy
Oath of Swords: http://www.baen.com/library/067187642...
War God's Own: http://www.baen.com/library/067187873...

Emery wrote: "Finally found it. Short story in Masters of Fantasy which was a Baen book with short stories set in some of their authors' famous worlds.
By the way Oath of Swords and War God's Own are available..."

ahhh Thank you! I have downloaded a ton or free books from various sites. I often forget about Baen though. Thanks!