Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Peter_M

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jun 20, 2018
243
201
Hi,

Just a sigh of frustration here.

Mac Mini used to offer up to 64gb of RAM, like in my i7 Mac Mini from 2018.

For certain things, you don't need the added GPU cores in the Max and Ultra chips, offered in the Mac Studio. But you still need more RAM.

For Apple to only offer 32gb of RAM in the Mac Mini is nonsensical (except pushing people towards more expensive Mac Studio models). In my case, composing music with sample libraries etc, the compact form factor of Mac Mini is preferable, as I don't need those additional GPU cores, but 32gb RAM is not enough.

64gb RAM makes total sense for a significant part of Mac Mini customers, yet Apple choose to artificially limit this important feature. So unnecessary.

Anyways, just IMO...
 
Last edited:

bzgnyc2

macrumors regular
Dec 8, 2023
201
216
Hi,

Just a sigh of frustration here.

Mac Mini used to offer up to 64gb of RAM, like in my i7 Mac Mini from 2018.

For certain things, you don't need the added GPU cores in the Max and Ultra chips, offered in the Mac Studio. But you still need more RAM.

For Apple to only offer 32gb of RAM in the Mac Mini is nonsensical (except pushing people towards more expensive Mac Studio models). In my case, composing music with sample libraries etc, the compact form factor of Mac Mini is preferable, as I don't need those additional GPU cores, but 32gb RAM is not enough.

64gb RAM makes total sense for a significant part of Mac Mini customers, yet Apple choose to artificially limit this important feature. So unnecessary.

Anyways, just IMO...

Yes unfortunately the Mac Studio feels like the real successor to the Mac Mini 2018. While the Mac Mini M2 no-Pro have the same form factor and pricing as the 2018 Mac Mini (my current), they dropped enough features and added enough limitations it's really a new, lower-end model.

I've already decided I would need at least the Mac Mini M2 Pro to feel like I wasn't downgrading. Then as the memory isn't upgradable and some of my new work needs more memory, I am not sure I could buy one with only 16GB of RAM (what I already have on MacBook Air). Which means my new buy-in for a Mac Mini starts at $1700, which is only $300 less than a Mac Studio that would give me 2 more p-cores (my work benefits from the p-cores) and some front USB ports (which I have wanted from time to time relative to my current Mac Mini). So now we've gone from $680 to $2K. $2K feels like an investment so I've held off...

And that my friends is how you save money in this economy...

But back to your note, agree I would prefer memory, disk, and processor (and to some extent GPU) to be seperate dimensions of configurability/upgradability but Apple seems to be continuing down a road of bundling and price discrimination for better value capture.

As a side note, has everyone seen what Framework is doing with their laptops? Not only are they not dropping support for models 3 generations back, they recently offered new screen and webcam upgrades for legacy models. So not only can those owners upgrade RAM and SSD (swap out USB-C and A ports, etc), but existing owners will be able to upgrade their screens (from somewhat less resolution than a MacBook Air to somewhat higher @ 120 fps) and webcam (higher resolution/lower light) at close to the hardware costs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Peter_M

turbineseaplane

macrumors P6
Mar 19, 2008
15,929
35,148
Very frustrating indeed

It seems to me like we shouldn't have both the Studio and Mini

Just one of those form factors is needed -- the configs just need more flexibility
 

Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,344
2,987
Stargate Command
Very frustrating indeed

It seems to me like we shouldn't have both the Studio and Mini

Just one of those form factors is needed -- the configs just need more flexibility

Mac mini chassis & PSU will not support the Mn Max or Mn Ultra, Mac Studio chassis & PSU is overkill for the Mn & Mn Pro; so yeah, both form factors are needed...

And once the Mn Extreme is released, will will most likely need a new form factor for a non-PCIe variant of that; a Mac Pro Cube, perchance...? ;^p
 

FreakinEurekan

macrumors 603
Sep 8, 2011
6,002
2,971
I suspect if you looked at Apple's order numbers for 2018 Mac mini with 64GB, it'd be obvious why they're not offering it any more. I'm sure of those that were used, most were aftermarket upgrades.

Of course this isn't the only complaint about RAM limitations with Apple Silicon. Mac Pro maximum RAM with Intel was 1.5TB, with Apple Silicon was 192MB? 😬 At least you have the OPTION of going to the Mac Studio ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chuckeee

Peter_M

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jun 20, 2018
243
201
I suspect if you looked at Apple's order numbers for 2018 Mac mini with 64GB, it'd be obvious why they're not offering it any more. I'm sure of those that were used, most were aftermarket upgrades.

Of course this isn't the only complaint about RAM limitations with Apple Silicon. Mac Pro maximum RAM with Intel was 1.5TB, with Apple Silicon was 192MB? 😬 At least you have the OPTION of going to the Mac Studio ;)
I did the same thing. You could order separate RAM sticks and install them yourself, for a much lower price. Kinda a no-brainer tbh. :)

It seems Apple is forcing users over to Mac Studio, as the price for Mac Mini is also more expensive for what you get (with higher specs).
 

ignatius345

macrumors 604
Aug 20, 2015
7,219
12,034
At least the Mac Mini can go up to 32gb, the iMac and MacBook Air are both limited to just 24. 😖
The MacBook Air is explicitly a "non-pro" machine and it seems the iMac is on that same track. "Just" 24 GB of RAM is more than sufficient for that usage profile.

If you need more RAM, you buy a Studio or a MacBook Pro. Seems like pretty clear product segmentation to me.
 

Peter_M

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jun 20, 2018
243
201
The MacBook Air is explicitly a "non-pro" machine and it seems the iMac is on that same track. "Just" 24 GB of RAM is more than sufficient for that usage profile.

If you need more RAM, you buy a Studio or a MacBook Pro. Seems like pretty clear product segmentation to me.
Many users prefer the slim form factor of the Mac Mini, with limited desk space, and you can easily secure it below your desk out of sight. I don't the need added GPU cores in the Mac Studio, and there should be no reason why people who need CPU and RAM, couldn't get a Mac Mini with up to 64gb RAM. It's clearly about product segmentation (Apple has done this stuff for a long time), but in a poor and unnecessary way IMO.
 
Last edited:
  • Love
Reactions: turbineseaplane

FreakinEurekan

macrumors 603
Sep 8, 2011
6,002
2,971
I did the same thing. You could order separate RAM sticks and install them yourself, for a much lower price. Kinda a no-brainer tbh. :)

It seems Apple is forcing users over to Mac Studio, as the price for Mac Mini is also more expensive for what you get (with higher specs).
Yes, exactly.

The ability to “roll your own” is gone, and Apple apparently believes that people who need (I.e. are willing to pay Apple for) 64GB RAM, will almost certainly pay for a Mac Studio with M2 Max instead of M2 Pro.

They’re probably right in the vast majority of cases 😉 but Apple.com/feedback - tell ‘em what you want.
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,692
7,894
and there should be no reason why people who need CPU and RAM, could at least get a Mac Mini with up to 64gb RAM
You can't have 64GB of RAM on a M3 Pro processor. It's part and parcel of the way the systems-on-a-chip have been designed - with the RAM chips mounted directly on the processor package - and while I'm sure that "market segmentation" plays a role, it has also been done that way for performance & power efficiency reasons. The M3 Max has extra memory bus lines needed to quickly access larger RAM chips.

Also, I'm no fan of Apple's upgrade prices, but the reality is that a 12 core, 32GB M2 Pro mini already costs the same as a 32GB M2 Max Studio, so unless Apple change their pricing structure a hypothetical 64GB Mini would cost the same $2400 as a 64GB Studio.

At least with M3, and presumably M4 - when either of those show up on the Mini/Studio - the "Max" version will actually get you more CPU cores, not just more GPU cores and an extra media engine.

I think the other problem is that Apple really don't do niche - economy of scale is king and in general the need for more RAM goes hand-in-hand with the need for more CPU/GPU power. If you don't fit that overall trend and actually need tons of RAM but only a modest CPU/GPU, bad luck - Apple Silicon just isn't the tool for that job.

We do now have a new RAM hog in the form of (and I use the term through gritted teeth) AI and with M4 ringing the AI bell it will be interesting to see what the RAM specs are on the next Pro and Max chips.

The 2018 Mac Minis may have been good for RAM expansion, but the Apple Silicon CPUs are faster and have better GPUs.
 

ignatius345

macrumors 604
Aug 20, 2015
7,219
12,034
Many users prefer the slim form factor of the Mac Mini, with limited desk space, and you can easily secure it below your desk out of sight. I don't the need added GPU cores in the Mac Studio, and there should be no reason why people who need CPU and RAM, could at least get a Mac Mini with up to 64gb RAM. It's clearly about product segmentation (Apple has done this stuff for a long time), but in a poor and unnecessary way IMO.
I hear you, but I think they are assuming that anyone who needs that much RAM is probably also going to be driving a heavier workflow that will benefit from more cooling than the Mini form factor can accomodate. And I think that's a pretty reasonable assumption generally. Even more so with the Air, which has only passive cooling.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chuckeee

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,303
12,057
Maybe the Ultra - but they stick the Max chips in laptops. Absolutely the Mini form factor would work for them.
Yep. There is more internal volume in a Mac mini than there is in a 14" MacBook Pro (although the power supply for the Mac mini is internal). This is likely mostly a marketing decision, although I don't necessarily disagree with it. I just wish the Mac mini would start at 12 GB RAM, and wish there was a 24 GB option for the M2 Pro Mac mini.

However, I suspect we will get 12 GB base with a M4 Mac mini, and possibly even a 24 GB option with a M4 Pro Mac mini, although I'm less optimistic about the latter.
 

HoxtonBridge

macrumors newbie
May 19, 2024
13
21
The MacBook Air is explicitly a "non-pro" machine and it seems the iMac is on that same track. "Just" 24 GB of RAM is more than sufficient for that usage profile.

If you need more RAM, you buy a Studio or a MacBook Pro. Seems like pretty clear product segmentation to me.
I agree with that as far as it goes, but the inability to upgrade RAM is suggestive of inbuilt obsolescence - arguably that applies equally further up the food chain. Can we all be secure in what our needs will likely be in two or three years?
 

ignatius345

macrumors 604
Aug 20, 2015
7,219
12,034
I agree with that as far as it goes, but the inability to upgrade RAM is suggestive of inbuilt obsolescence - arguably that applies equally further up the food chain. Can we all be secure in what our needs will likely be in two or three years?
Yeah, I mean, welcome to modern computers I guess? I don't believe Macs are the only devices out there that can't be upgraded interally.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chuckeee

bzgnyc2

macrumors regular
Dec 8, 2023
201
216
Yeah, I mean, welcome to modern computers I guess? I don't believe Macs are the only devices out there that can't be upgraded interally.
Not the only but there are definitely upgradable options out there. Instead of lowering our expectations let's highlight the work of companies like Framework. Their laptops are not only upgradable of memory and SSD (among other things) but recently added screen and webcam upgrades for legacy laptops from 2 generations ago. Yes if you replace the logic board, memory, SSD, screen, camera, etc it's going to cost the same (if not slightly more) than a new laptop but the point is that a modular solution is possible even in a laptop. And if you only need to upgrade one component, it's a lot less to throw away.

But in the desktop range (Mini/Studio/Pro), I find it much less justifiable. While I am still happy with my 4 year old MacBook Air as-bought, there's no good reason that the SSD in a modern Mac Mini can't be upgraded. Worse is the memory for which external is not an option. While I get the reasons, I don't accept their solution. Then we're supposed to recycle aluminum cans but throw away 30+ lb of aluminum desktop that cost $7K if we didn't configure more than we needed at the time of purchase?

If this is all about finding a way to subsidize the development of MacOS X, I acquiesce. Sign me up for a new model...
 

ignatius345

macrumors 604
Aug 20, 2015
7,219
12,034
Not the only but there are definitely upgradable options out there. Instead of lowering our expectations let's highlight the work of companies like Framework. Their laptops are not only upgradable of memory and SSD (among other things) but recently added screen and webcam upgrades for legacy laptops from 2 generations ago. Yes if you replace the logic board, memory, SSD, screen, camera, etc it's going to cost the same (if not slightly more) than a new laptop but the point is that a modular solution is possible even in a laptop. And if you only need to upgrade one component, it's a lot less to throw away.

But in the desktop range (Mini/Studio/Pro), I find it much less justifiable. While I am still happy with my 4 year old MacBook Air as-bought, there's no good reason that the SSD in a modern Mac Mini can't be upgraded. Worse is the memory for which external is not an option. While I get the reasons, I don't accept their solution. Then we're supposed to recycle aluminum cans but throw away 30+ lb of aluminum desktop that cost $7K if we didn't configure more than we needed at the time of purchase?

If this is all about finding a way to subsidize the development of MacOS X, I acquiesce. Sign me up for a new model...
In principle, couldn't agree more. Apple does a great job greenwashing, but a bit of upgradeability would keep their devices useful longer.

In practice? Macs (and computers generally) have gotten so much cheaper over time that I don't find it not so painful to buy a new Mac every 3-5 years or so, especially if I'm doing paid work with it.

I think what's happened is that a lot of computers have gone from being like a car where it costs a ton of money up front and then you keep doing things to it to keep it running, upgrade it as necessary, etc -- to being more like an appliance where you use it for its usable lifespan and then you replace it. I think the iPhone also got people hooked on the "get the shiny new thing!" model.

Agree, it's a crap deal for the environment, and frankly way too much of our economy is built around inexpensive and replaceable goods. Framework has done a great job of showing that a modular laptop can work at a reasonable price. I wish Apple would make some moves in that direction.
 

frou

macrumors 65816
Mar 14, 2009
1,339
1,876
If the SSDs were socketed (even with a proprietary Apple connector), you could take your 2TB/4TB/8TB SSD from your existing Mac and put it into your new Mac, instead of having to buy the same hugely marked up component again. You see, it's not enough to be price-gouged once, you have to be price-gouged every time.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: AlumaMac

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,692
7,894
I agree with that as far as it goes, but the inability to upgrade RAM is suggestive of inbuilt obsolescence
No current laptop - Mac or PC - with LPDDR (low power) RAM can be upgraded. Until very recently there was no low-power equivalent of plug-in DDR4/5 DIMM modules. Part of the power saving relies on having the shortest possible connection from the RAM to the CPU without any loss/interference from sockets etc. LPDDR memory was only available as surface mount chips. Systems like the Framework are great, but take a power/performance hit by using dull-power DDR sticks. Apple Silicon also squeezes extra speed out of LPDDR by mounting it directly on theprocessor package. In the last year, a new system (LPCAMM) for user-upgradeable LPDDR RAM modules has been released but it is not widely adopted yet. I doubt Apple will adopt this - doesn't look like it will fit their design of directly driving the RAM chips from the CPU, but it does conjure up a lovely image of a M4 Max with wings...

Then we're supposed to recycle aluminum cans but throw away 30+ lb of aluminum desktop that cost $7K
That's kinda a read herring. If I took an old Mac Pro to the local tip, the totters would be on that 30lb of aluminium like flies on dung - it will get recycled. The problem is the plastic and other crud that's leftover, which you'll also generate when you throw away your old DIMMs, M.2 SSDs and GPU cards... Also, my experience with home-assembled PCs is that technology moves on and after a couple of years most upgrades involve replacing the whole motherboard. Apple Silicon has drastically reduced the size of the main board in many Macs.

Thing is, that $7K Mac Pro should still be useful to someone as a working system for years to come, even when it is no longer cutting edge - stripping the RAM and SSD to use on your new system is what will send it to the tip.

That said, It wouldn't have been rocket surgery to make the AS Mac Pro with the SoC on a plug-in, upgradeable, daughter board separate to the PCIe backplane, or to upgrade a M1 Mini/Studio to M2. Trouble is, by the time you add the labour costs and subtract the value of a second-hand Mini/Studio it probably wouldn't be economical.

The real problem with RAM is Apple's extortionate upgrade prices & low base RAM specs (really both the same issue - if Apple charged a realistic price for RAM it wouldn't be worth them making 8GB SoCs) which encourages people to skimp at the time of purchase. 16 or 24GB RAM on a >> $1000 machine shouldn't be an expensive option and would be plenty for foreseeable future proofing.

RAM Requirements aren't doubling every year any more - it's just that Apple has been stuck with 8GB as standard on (say) the entry level MBP for the last 10 years - and charging $200 per 8GB increment since at least 2017. The only reason I got a mere 4GB MBP in 2011 and an 8GB iMac in 2017 was that the Apple upgrades were stupidly expensive and 3rd party upgrades were cheap & easy. I didn't think for one moment that those were going to be enough.

If the SSDs were socketed (even with a proprietary Apple connector), you could take your 2TB/4TB/8TB SSD from your existing Mac and put it into your new Mac,
Now, SSDs are a different beast to RAM, and the fact that the SSDs are socketed & replaceable in the Mac Studio and Pro debunks any technical argument for soldering them in. Also, SSD is still perishable - with a finite maximum number of write operations before it breaks down - in a way that RAM isn't, even though the theoretical lifetimes shouldn't be a problem in practice, perishable components just shouldn't be soldered in. On the other hand, that does make moving your old, worn SSD to a new machine less attractive.
 

Peter_M

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jun 20, 2018
243
201
You can't have 64GB of RAM on a M3 Pro processor. It's part and parcel of the way the systems-on-a-chip have been designed - with the RAM chips mounted directly on the processor package - and while I'm sure that "market segmentation" plays a role, it has also been done that way for performance & power efficiency reasons. The M3 Max has extra memory bus lines needed to quickly access larger RAM chips.

Also, I'm no fan of Apple's upgrade prices, but the reality is that a 12 core, 32GB M2 Pro mini already costs the same as a 32GB M2 Max Studio, so unless Apple change their pricing structure a hypothetical 64GB Mini would cost the same $2400 as a 64GB Studio.

At least with M3, and presumably M4 - when either of those show up on the Mini/Studio - the "Max" version will actually get you more CPU cores, not just more GPU cores and an extra media engine.

I think the other problem is that Apple really don't do niche - economy of scale is king and in general the need for more RAM goes hand-in-hand with the need for more CPU/GPU power. If you don't fit that overall trend and actually need tons of RAM but only a modest CPU/GPU, bad luck - Apple Silicon just isn't the tool for that job.

We do now have a new RAM hog in the form of (and I use the term through gritted teeth) AI and with M4 ringing the AI bell it will be interesting to see what the RAM specs are on the next Pro and Max chips.

The 2018 Mac Minis may have been good for RAM expansion, but the Apple Silicon CPUs are faster and have better GPUs.
You make some convincing arguments, for sure. I hope M4 has more flexibility in terms of RAM. Realistically we'll see 48gb of RAM at most in the M4 Mac Mini, but most likely still only 32gb - unfortunately.

It's funny, back in the day we used to get a faster and better computer every new year for the same price, including bigger storage, more RAM etc. Apple still offers 8gb RAM and 256gb SSD as standard (with exorbitant upgrade prices), for how many years now?

I wonder how Apple's sales are doing internationally? Apple may have started to push their price levels a bit too much lately. Their M-chips are very impressive, but speaking for myself I upgrade my Apple devices much more rarely now - it's simply become too expensive, certainly here in Norway.
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,692
7,894
Apple still offers 8gb RAM and 256gb SSD as standard (with exorbitant upgrade prices), for how many years now?
By my calculation, since 2015 if you look at the entry level MacBook Pro:


...and the $100-per-4GB-increment upgrade has been the Apple standard for the 4GB base mini since 2014.

Of course, there was no Mini release between 2014 (4GB) and 2018 (8GB) - but even 2018-2023 is a long time in computing. Consider the base Mini has gone from 4 to 8 cores and the multi-core GeekBench 5 from 3265 to 8809 in that time, and from a feeble Intel GPU to a half-decent Apple Silicon one - all of which mean that the CPU/GPU can process more data and can potentially benefit from more RAM. Apple have been kinda relying on the speed boost of Apple silicon, hardware video codec acceleration and more efficient swapping to hide the lack of memory.

It's baffling why people accept/expect all the other hardware improvements but defend 2015-level RAM and SSD sizes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Peter_M

EugW

macrumors G5
Jun 18, 2017
14,303
12,057
It's baffling why people accept/expect all the other hardware improvements but defend 2015-level RAM and SSD sizes.
There are two different arguments here. I think it bears repeating that most (but not all) people aren’t complaining about the 8 GB per se, but the 8 GB for the price.

8 GB is indeed still fine for most entry level users but if they’re going to stick with 8 GB, they should price it accordingly.

Anyhow, I’m 75% sure that M4 Macs will start at 12 GB (or 95% sure it will be M4 or M5), but will keep prices roughly the same.
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,692
7,894
There are two different arguments here. I think it bears repeating that most (but not all) people aren’t complaining about the 8 GB per se, but the 8 GB for the price.
I think the real point is that nobody is suggesting that Apple should put the base price up by $200 just so some of us can have 16GB.

After 8-10 years of 8GB as a base - Apple should, by now, be able to offer 16GB without increasing the price. Just as, over those years, they've regularly improved almost every other specification while Mac prices have barely kept up with inflation, and just as, in earlier years, they've gone from 512MB to 1GB to 2GB to 4GB to 8GB.

Apple have just enjoyed a honeymoon period where Apple Silicon leapfrogged them over the competition on price/performance - that won't last forever: MS, Intel and Qualcomm are playing catch-up, and 8GB on a $1000+ laptop hasn't got any more generous-sounding since 2020. Apple need to be careful that they don't over-stretch the brand loyalty of Mac users, and that they keep attracting a new generation of Mac users from the PC world. You'd think, with howlers from Microsoft such as forced upgrades, adverts in the start menu, and that wonderful new 'recall' divorce generator, Apple would have cleaned MSs clock - at least outside the corporate market - by now, but the perceived cost and low specs of Apple products is a massive turn off.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.